Suspend the Rules for Ballot Votes

[Tomm]

Is it correct that a Bylaw that requires all votes shall be by ballot but also provides a method for it own suspension, that suspension must be by a 2/3rd's vote?

[Richard Brown]

On 9/13/2022 at 6:41 PM, Tomm said:

Is it correct that a Bylaw that requires all votes shall be by ballot but also provides a method for it own suspension, that suspension must be by a 2/3rd's vote?

Maybe, maybe not. Do the bylaws specify the vote required for suspension of that rule?  If the bylaws are silent as to the vote required, then, based on the rules in RONR, a 2/3 vote would normally be required.  Note, there are some exceptions where a higher vote requirement might be required. see section 25 of RONR for those exceptions, particularly 25:2 (7). 

Edited September 14, 2022 at 12:31 AM by Richard Brown
Added “ particularly 25:2 (7) at the end

[Gary Novosielski]

On 9/13/2022 at 7:41 PM, Tomm said:

Is it correct that a Bylaw that requires all votes shall be by ballot but also provides a method for it own suspension, that suspension must be by a 2/3rd's vote?

Yes, unless said provision provides otherwise.

[Tomm]

The Bylaw currently lacks any provision for its own suspension. 

[Richard Brown]

On 9/13/2022 at 7:32 PM, Tomm said:

The Bylaw currently lacks any provision for its own suspension. 

Now, wait a minute!  You told us in your opening post that the bylaws do provide for the rule to be suspended!  Which is it? Do they or do they not provide for the rule to be suspended?

Edited September 14, 2022 at 12:35 AM by Richard Brown
Typographical correction

[Tomm]

On 9/13/2022 at 5:34 PM, Richard Brown said:

You told us in your opening post that the bylaws do provide for the rule to be suspended!  Which is it? Do they or do they not provide for the rule to be suspended?

Misunderstanding! I didn't say the Bylaw existed with provisions to suspend, I was inquiring that if the Bylaw were to provide for its own suspension would it be a 2/3rds vote as opposed to a simply majority. Sorry!

[puzzling]

the bylaws regulate what the bylaws state.

so whatever the bylaws state overrules RONR.

so if the bylaws state that some regulation can be suspended by a majority vote against it, that regulation can be suspended by a  majority vote against it.

whatever RONR has to say about it. (so even if RONR says that it cannot be suspended)

Having said all that.

What good is there to be gained to have some majority overrule secret ballot? 

Is it not much better to have a more strict rules? 

 

[Josh Martin]

On 9/13/2022 at 6:41 PM, Tomm said:

Is it correct that a Bylaw that requires all votes shall be by ballot but also provides a method for it own suspension, that suspension must be by a 2/3rd's vote?

If the bylaws provide a method for their suspension, then it is possible the bylaws prescribe the vote that is required. If not, however, it seems to me that a 2/3 vote is required.

I would note, however, that a rule that requires all votes to be taken by ballot would seem to also require the vote to Suspend the Rules to be by ballot - unless, of course, the bylaws provide otherwise.

[Tomm]

On 9/14/2022 at 7:50 AM, Josh Martin said:

I would note, however, that a rule that requires all votes to be taken by ballot would seem to also require the vote to Suspend the Rules to be by ballot - unless, of course, the bylaws provide otherwise.

Hmmm! I hadn't thought about that! So I guess what you're saying is, if the Bylaw that requires all votes to be taken by ballot had a provision for its own suspension that rule could state that "the suspension of this rule may be provided with a voice vote"?  

[Rob Elsman]

The respondents to the question are not the authentic interpreters of this organization's bylaws.  The organization, itself, is responsible and empowered to authentically interpret its rules.  So, whatever this bylaw is intended to say to do, that's what the organization is bound to do until the rule is rescinded or amended.

As to Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised (12th ed.), questions are ordinarily put to vote by voice vote or a show of hands if a majority vote is required for adoption; however, if the question requires something else (e.g., a two-thirds vote) for adoption, a rising vote (perhaps counted, if necessary) is used.  The assembly also has authority to order a particular method of voting by adopting a preliminary main motion or an incidental motion; so, the assembly could order, by majority vote, a vote by secret ballot, particularly for very important questions.  Because voting by secret ballot is extraordinarily time-consuming, this method is reserved for only the more important questions.  If it is clearly evident that a motion to order a secret ballot vote is moved solely for the purpose of delay and obstruction of the proceedings, the motion is not in order.

[Josh Martin]

On 9/14/2022 at 4:34 PM, Tomm said:

Hmmm! I hadn't thought about that! So I guess what you're saying is, if the Bylaw that requires all votes to be taken by ballot had a provision for its own suspension that rule could state that "the suspension of this rule may be provided with a voice vote"?  

Yes.

I would suggest personally, however, that if an organization has a rule "that requires all votes shall be by ballot," it would be preferable to remove the rule altogether or, in the alternative, select particular matters of importance for which ballot votes are required, rather than leaving the rule in place and providing a mechanism for its suspension.

If the society insists on having a mechanism for less than a majority to order ballot votes on any question (rather than defining particular issues), an alternative method might be to require a ballot vote upon the request of a certain number or proportion of members (e.g. five members, 1/5 of the members present, etc.). This might be less tedious than requiring a ballot vote for all votes and taking votes to suspend the rules, since I imagine the assembly might wish to suspend such a rule more often than not.

Edited September 15, 2022 at 11:14 AM by Josh Martin