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The relationship between 41:63 (changing an agenda) and 41:27 (making a motion under new business)


crebelein

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On 1/30/2023 at 10:15 AM, Caryn Ann Harlos said:

Let's say they have this strict agenda as described.  At this meeting there are no general orders from last meeting.  A member gives notice to the other members he would like something added, does he just have to hope that a, the chair adds it, or b, the mercy of the other members when the agenda is adopted.

I think this is correct, although I would note that the member is still at the mercy of the other members even if the chair adds the item, since the members could remove the item from the agenda.

On 1/30/2023 at 10:27 AM, Caryn Ann Harlos said:

Here is my issue with Mr. Martin's statement.... suppose the society allows members to give notice of things they would like on the agenda to the Secretary.  They are not general orders IMHO.  They would get listed under new business.

It is correct that giving notice of an item, in and of itself, is not a general order. The assembly may make it a general order if it wishes, either by placement on the agenda or (in the absence of an agenda) by a motion to do so. Further, the fact that previous notice has been given does not force the assembly to place the item on the agenda. If the item is not made a general order, then the item would be brought up under New Business.

Placing an item on an agenda, at least so far as RONR is concerned, makes that item an order of the day. For this reason, strictly speaking, the heading "New Business" should not have anything listed under it.

"By a single vote, a series of special orders or general orders—or a mixture of both—can be made; such a series is called an agenda. When an hour is assigned to a particular subject in an agenda, that subject is thereby made a special order unless, by footnote or other means, it is stated that the time is intended merely for guidance, in which case the subject is only a general order. Subjects for which no hour is specified in an agenda are general orders." RONR (12th ed.) 41:58

I am aware that the standard practice in most organizations is at odds with these rules.

On 1/30/2023 at 10:36 AM, crebelein said:

Correct. This is an elected school board in MN. There is no statute in place that directs the rules of operation and our district does not have any bylaws that override in RONR. In fact the bylaws/policy are too lean in this respect if you ask me.

I am in agreement that, in the long run, the best way to resolve this matter is for the board to adopt rules governing this practice, preferably with the assistance of an attorney. The Minnesota School Boards Association may also have advice on this matter.

I am somewhat doubtful of the statement that there are no rules in applicable law in place on this subject, but ultimately that question is beyond the scope of RONR and this forum.

On 1/30/2023 at 12:10 PM, Rob Elsman said:

It should not be the custom for the executive board of an ordinary society that meets at least quarterly to adopt an agenda; rather, the board should follow the rules in RONR (12th ed.) §41 and proceed through the order of business, as described there, during each meeting or set of meetings that comprises a session.

Mr. Elsman, based on additional facts from the OP, it does not appear that this is "the executive board of an ordinary society." The OP has stated that "This is an elected school board in MN." I strongly expect that it is a requirement under applicable law that an agenda be posted in advance.

Edited by Josh Martin
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Where do new items which appear on a draft agenda or Call end up in the OOB, if that draft agenda is not adopted (voted on)?  New Business?

Should all items in a Call appear in a draft agenda?  

Should items given previous notice (RONR 12th ed. 10:50) which are entered in the minutes not automatically end up on the draft agenda and/or Call?  What's the point of entering them solely in the minutes?

 

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There is no requirement in RONR (12th ed.) that items of new business appear in an agenda, whether adopted or just provided for information. Provided previous notice is not required, members can show up at a meeting and think up main motions to offer "on the fly", so to speak, during the time in the order of business for new business.

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On 1/30/2023 at 3:28 PM, Rob Elsman said:

When previous notice of a main motion has been given, nothing appears in the order of business, because it is possible that no main motion will be made that follows up on the notice given.

But, the fact that previous notice of intent to make a motion was given at a meeting should be recorded in the minutes of that meeting.  RONR 49:4(9) (12rh ed.).

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If the notice is given at a meeting, it will be entered on the minutes; however, if notice is given by sending it to the secretary in time to be included in the call of the next meeting, nothing of the notice will appear in the minutes of any meeting, since nothing of the notice happened at a meeting. 🙂

Edited by Rob Elsman
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On 1/30/2023 at 3:17 PM, laser158689 said:

Where do new items which appear on a draft agenda or Call end up in the OOB, if that draft agenda is not adopted (voted on)?  New Business?

Yes, assuming there is no other reason the items in question would fall under another heading. This is also where they would end up if, for instance, the agenda is adopted but does not specifically list those items.

On 1/30/2023 at 3:17 PM, laser158689 said:

Should all items in a Call appear in a draft agenda?  

Even to the extent the assembly uses an agenda rather than simply using the standard order of business (or a special order of business adopted by the assembly), RONR has no requirement that items for which previous notice has been given be included in a draft agenda.

On 1/30/2023 at 3:17 PM, laser158689 said:

Should items given previous notice (RONR 12th ed. 10:50) which are entered in the minutes not automatically end up on the draft agenda and/or Call?  What's the point of entering them solely in the minutes?

The purpose of giving notice of a planned action is to notify members of the intent to bring up that motion at the meeting in question, and such notice is often required for certain items, and for other items lowers the threshold for adoption. Giving such notice does not have the effect of making the item an order of the day for the meeting in question or guaranteeing that the item will be considered. That is the case whether or not the assembly has a habit of adopting a particularly rigid agenda.

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On 1/30/2023 at 3:28 AM, Richard Brown said:

I do, too, and I believe there are other threads to that effect in this forum. In addition, as I believe someone has already mentioned, a special rule of order can be adopted which prohibits introducing new business from the floor that is not on the agenda or that has not been noticed.

And that rule could also prevent giving a notice (what in my idea is a kind of new bussiness) so you will not be able to get it on the agenda anyway.

Not that I like it but it could be a logical consequence.

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On 1/31/2023 at 8:39 AM, puzzling said:

And that rule could also prevent giving a notice (what in my idea is a kind of new bussiness) so you will not be able to get it on the agenda anyway.

Not that I like it but it could be a logical consequence.

I would generally disagree that a rule "which prohibits introducing new business from the floor that is not on the agenda" would prevent giving notice during a meeting, nor do I agree that giving notice is technically "New Business". While it is conceivable that such a rule could be adopted, generally my experience is that such rules are not intended to preclude the giving of notice, and I do not think the sort of rule Mr. Brown describes would accomplish this objective. It would be quite odd to require members to give notice of their intent to give notice. :)

So far as RONR is concerned, while it is preferable to give notice when no question is pending (and I would think it would generally be logical to give notice during New Business), it is ultimately in order to give notice during other headings, even while other business is pending.

"When no question is pending, a member desiring to give a notice is entitled to preference in recognition (but see 42:6–13 for circumstances in which others may have a higher priority for such preference). But if the member wishing to give the notice is unable to obtain the floor while no business is pending (as may sometimes happen, for example, in a convention that is following an adopted agenda or program, 41, or in cases where a meeting of an ordinary society adjourns before completing its regular order of business), the notice, if necessary, can interrupt pending business or any other pending motion; the notice is also in order when another person has been assigned the floor but has not yet begun to speak, and is in order even after it has been voted to adjourn, provided that the chair has not yet declared the meeting adjourned (see also 21:10–12)." RONR (12th ed.) 10:48

I would also clarify that, even to the extent that a rule prohibited giving notice during a meeting unless this was listed on the agenda (which would be highly unusual), notice may also be given by including the notice in the call.

"A requirement of previous notice means that announcement that the motion will be introduced—indicating its exact content as described below—must be included in the call of the meeting (1:7, 9:2–5) at which the motion will be brought up, or, as a permissible alternative, if no more than a quarterly time interval (see 9:7) will have elapsed since the preceding meeting, the announcement must be made at the preceding meeting." RONR (12th ed.) 10:44

An organization may also have its own rules governing the manner in which notice is given, particularly for subjects such as amendments to the bylaws, and such rules will take precedence over RONR.

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