Non Debatable vs no explanation

[Guest SAM12]

If a motion is not debatable does that mean it can’t come with explanation? Is “a motion to extend the meeting until 10:30 so we can  complete the next agenda item” allowed? Or “a motion to limit the time of debate because we need to have time to vote on the item before we adjourn “ ?

Is this brief explanation considered debate? 

[J. J.]

Using the example found in 17:03 #5, I think brief explanation would be acceptable. 

I think that your first example would be debatable, however. 

[Atul Kapur]

You may find 43:31-34 of guidance, particularly this portion of 43:31

Quote

the making of a motion of any kind—whether debatable or undebatable—may be prefaced, when necessary, by a few words of explanation, which must not become a speech; .... Similarly, business may sometimes be expedited by allowing a few words of factual explanation while an undebatable motion is pending.

 

[J. J.]

On 2/2/2023 at 2:23 AM, Atul Kapur said:

You may find 43:31-34 of guidance, particularly this portion of 43:31

 

Thank you.  That was the one I was looking for. 

 

[Josh Martin]

On 2/1/2023 at 10:56 PM, Guest SAM12 said:

If a motion is not debatable does that mean it can’t come with explanation?

No. It is perfectly acceptable to include a brief explanation for a nondebatable motion.

On 2/1/2023 at 10:56 PM, Guest SAM12 said:

Is “a motion to extend the meeting until 10:30 so we can  complete the next agenda item” allowed? Or “a motion to limit the time of debate because we need to have time to vote on the item before we adjourn “ ?

To be clear, the motion itself should not contain the explanation. The motion should simply be "to extend the meeting until 10:30" and the member could then briefly note the reason for making the motion. Same thing for the motion to limit debate - and that motion should also specify in what manner debate shall be limited.

On 2/1/2023 at 11:18 PM, J. J. said:

I think that your first example would be debatable, however. 

Potentially. I think it depends on the circumstances in which the motion arises. If an assembly has set a scheduled time for adjournment, a motion to change the time for adjournment when no business is pending and the time for adjournment has not yet been reached would be a motion to Amend Something Previously Adopted, which is debatable. On the other hand, if this motion is made when the time for adjournment has been reached, it is then a motion to set aside the orders of the day (which is a form of suspending the rules) and is not debatable.

[Atul Kapur]

On 2/2/2023 at 7:49 AM, J. J. said:

Thank you.  That was the one I was looking for. 

 

The keyword to use in a search is careful, which brings you fairly rapidly to 43:32

[Rob Elsman]

The acid test that reliably dintinguishes a brief, factual explanation from a speech in debate is whether the remarks delve into the merits of the motion, especially with an eye to persuading the members to vote one way or another, based on the merits of the motion.

[J. J.]

On 2/2/2023 at 9:14 AM, Atul Kapur said:

The keyword to use in a search is careful, which brings you fairly rapidly to 43:32

Only for those of us with a digital copy 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 2/2/2023 at 12:18 AM, J. J. said:

I think that your first example would be debatable, however. 

I see what you did there.

[Shmuel Gerber]

On 2/2/2023 at 9:27 AM, Rob Elsman said:

The acid test that reliably dintinguishes a brief, factual explanation from a speech in debate is whether the remarks delve into the merits of the motion, especially with an eye to persuading the members to vote one way or another, based on the merits of the motion.

So does stating that a member wants to extend the meeting until 10:30 so we can  complete the next agenda item count as debate or not?

I think your entire acid test devolves to the meaning of "delve into," because clearly the purpose of making these brief remarks is to persuade members that they should vote for the motion on its merits. 

[J. J.]

On 2/2/2023 at 9:10 AM, Josh Martin said:

Potentially. I think it depends on the circumstances in which the motion arises. If an assembly has set a scheduled time for adjournment, a motion to change the time for adjournment when no business is pending and the time for adjournment has not yet been reached would be a motion to Amend Something Previously Adopted, which is debatable. On the other hand, if this motion is made when the time for adjournment has been reached, it is then a motion to set aside the orders of the day (which is a form of suspending the rules) and is not debatable.

The motion given, however, is this, "a motion to extend the meeting until 10:30 so we can complete the next agenda item.”  As worded, this is not setting aside the orders of the day; adding a time frame removes that possibility.  I will agree that, when the time for adjournment is reached, setting aside the orders of the day is appropriate. 

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

On 2/2/2023 at 7:10 AM, Josh Martin said:

To be clear, the motion itself should not contain the explanation. The motion should simply be "to extend the meeting until 10:30" and the member could then briefly note the reason for making the motion. Same thing for the motion to limit debate - and that motion should also specify in what manner debate shall be limited.

 

Disagree because the explanation may actually be part of the motion to do X limited to Y (and contained within Y is basically an argument for doing X)

[Rob Elsman]

On 2/3/2023 at 9:11 AM, Shmuel Gerber said:

So does stating that a member wants to extend the meeting until 10:30 so we can  complete the next agenda item count as debate or not?

I think your entire acid test devolves to the meaning of "delve into," because clearly the purpose of making these brief remarks is to persuade members that they should vote for the motion on its merits. 

I am certainly willing to concede that my choice of words may have been unartful (won't be the first time, either), but I am a little bit hard pressed to find a different choice right now. Perhaps a contrast between a factual statement about, and advocacy for, might be more enlightening for some. Maybe.