election rules Incomplete election definition

[Guest Mitch S]

One of our board members insists that an “incomplete election” can be called if a majority of the membership are not able to attend the election meeting. 
Our bylaws say the election “is held at the 4th association meeting of the season” and make no provisions for absentee, proxy, or extended voting beyond this meeting. 
While some of us on the board feel empathy for those who cannot attend, we do not believe we can declare an incomplete election based on this fact. 
(Note that bylaws do allow for hand, secret ballot or electronic voting at the meeting but not sure how to correctly apply electronic method to those not present)
Please weigh in. 

Thanks

[Bruce Lages]

Under the rules in RONR, officers requires a majority vote (44:11) for election, which is defined as "more than half of the votes cast by persons entitled to vote, excluding blanks and abstentions, at a regular or properly called meeting." (44:1). Since this definition is based on the number of members present and voting, it doesn't require the presence of a majority of the total membership, only the presence of a quorum of members, which is the minimum number of members who must actually be present to have a meeting at which business can be validly transacted. It should be clear that election of officers qualifies as business.

You should, however, check your bylaws for any specific rules applying to election of officers that could differ from this procedure in RONR. Those rules, if present, would supersede the rules in RONR.

You should also check your bylaws for rules that may prescribe a method allowing those not present to cast a vote, since you referenced applying electronic voting to those not present at the meeting. Rules permitting absentee voting, by whatever method, must be in your bylaws. If there are no such rules, then members not present at the meeting at which voting takes place cannot cast a valid vote.

[Gary Novosielski]

An incomplete election occurs when an election is held, but for some reason not all offices to be filled were successfully filled.  It could be because no majority was achieved, and repeated balloting was deadlocked, and needed to be continued at the next meeting.  It could be because nobody would run for, or accept election to, a given office. It could be other reasons.  But there is no option to simply decide that the election will not be held for some nebulous reasons.

And even if an election was supposed to occur at a given time, but did not, it should be held as soon as possible.  The door does not close because the scheduled date was missed.  It's still something that must be done. If the bylaws do not mention this, RONR does.  

The number of people who attend the election meeting must meet the Quorum requirements, which may be less than a majority of the membership.  As long as a quorum is met, the election is in order, and should be conducted.  The member who claims there is some additional rule about a majority of the membership should be invited to cite their source.

If there is some valid reason that the election cannot be held when it should, such as the absence of a quorum, or if it was only partially completed, it can be postponed to the next regular meeting of that body or, if that's far off, to an adjournment (continuation) of the current meeting, or to a special meeting called for that purpose.

Edited August 22, 2023 at 06:42 PM by Gary Novosielski

[Atul Kapur]

On 8/22/2023 at 1:26 PM, Guest Mitch S said:

an “incomplete election” can be called if a majority of the membership are not able to attend the election meeting. 

What do your bylaws state is the quorum for your meetings?

[Guest Guest Mitch S]

On 8/22/2023 at 2:57 PM, Atul Kapur said:

What do your bylaws state is the quorum for your meetings?

20. We always hit a quarum.  Entire membership is 111. Usually get 40-45. We were told in advance some members cannot attend and want a way to vote but we don't see a valid option outside of the meeting time as the by-laws do not address. There is a 5th meeting, but bylaws call for election at the 4th which is this Sunday. Verbal, Hand, Ballot or Electronic at the meeting are all possible ways allowed by bylaws at the choosing of the majority in attendance at the election, once nominations close. 

 

[Joshua Katz]

On 8/22/2023 at 2:31 PM, Guest Guest Mitch S said:

20. We always hit a quarum. 

In that case:

On 8/22/2023 at 12:26 PM, Guest Mitch S said:

One of our board members insists that an “incomplete election” can be called if a majority of the membership are not able to attend the election meeting. 

This board member doesn't know what he's talking about. Simply ask him for a citation in RONR or your bylaws that says this, which he cannot provide. 

 

[Guest Guest Mitch S]

His siting was regarding when the President asks if "everyone has had a chance to vote". To his thinking,  if there are ballots left over, the answer is no, and the election is incomplete.

[Joshua Katz]

In that case, why stop at a majority? Shouldn't be insist that every single member be there?

[Josh Martin]

On 8/22/2023 at 12:26 PM, Guest Mitch S said:

One of our board members insists that an “incomplete election” can be called if a majority of the membership are not able to attend the election meeting. 

An incomplete election isn't "called." An incomplete election is simply a description of fact of what happens when the assembly, for whatever reason, fails to complete the election at the assigned time.

So I'm not entirely certain what the board member means by this. I will say that, so long as a quorum is present, the election may be completed at that time. The assembly may postpone the election (while it is pending) by majority vote if it wishes to do so, but it is not obligated to do so on the basis that a majority of the membership is not able to attend. And to be clear, it is the membership, not the board, that would make that decision.

On 8/22/2023 at 12:26 PM, Guest Mitch S said:

While some of us on the board feel empathy for those who cannot attend, we do not believe we can declare an incomplete election based on this fact. 

This is absolutely correct. The board has no authority to intervene in an election conducted by the membership.

On 8/22/2023 at 2:31 PM, Guest Guest Mitch S said:

20. We always hit a quarum.  Entire membership is 111. Usually get 40-45. We were told in advance some members cannot attend and want a way to vote but we don't see a valid option outside of the meeting time as the by-laws do not address. There is a 5th meeting, but bylaws call for election at the 4th which is this Sunday. Verbal, Hand, Ballot or Electronic at the meeting are all possible ways allowed by bylaws at the choosing of the majority in attendance at the election, once nominations close. 

The membership may, if it wishes, postpone the election to the next regular meeting when the election is actually pending. But I'm not sure that would actually help matters much, since it seems that the assembly regularly has less than a majority attend its meetings - it's not a problem unique to this meeting.

It is absolutely correct that, if the bylaws do not provide for a mechanism of voting outside of a meeting, then it cannot be done.

On 8/22/2023 at 2:56 PM, Guest Guest Mitch S said:

His siting was regarding when the President asks if "everyone has had a chance to vote". To his thinking,  if there are ballots left over, the answer is no, and the election is incomplete.

For reference, the relevant citation is as follows:

"Motions relating to opening and closing the polls are applicable only with respect to ballot votes. It is usually better to leave it to the chair to close the polls. When the vote is taken by ballot, as soon as the chair thinks that all have voted who wish to, he inquires if all have voted. If there is no response, he declares the polls closed, and the tellers proceed to count the vote.

If a motion is made to close the polls when the voting has closed naturally, the chair can treat the motion as a unanimous-consent request and declare the polls closed. In any case, a formal motion to close the polls may not be recognized until all have presumably voted. Like motions relating to the close of debate or nominations, the motion to close the polls requires a two-thirds vote." RONR (12th ed.) 30:8-9

The member's line of thinking is extremely incorrect, for several reasons.

• The President does ask as a courtesy if all members have voted and, to the extent possible, leaves the polls open to give members time to vote.
• The "everyone" being referred to here is only the members who are present. Members who are absent have no right to vote. The President's announcement does not apply to members who are absent. After all, they can't hear the announcement, so it isn't meant for them.
• The election is certainly not incomplete on the grounds that some members have not voted, particularly in regard to absent members.

"It is a fundamental principle of parliamentary law that the right to vote is limited to the members of an organization who are actually present at the time the vote is taken in a regular or properly called meeting, although it should be noted that a member need not be present when the question is put. Exceptions to this rule must be expressly stated in the bylaws." RONR (12th ed.) 45:56

Edited August 22, 2023 at 08:56 PM by Josh Martin

[Guest Guest Mitch S]

Thank you all.  Regarding Possible "electronic voting" at or during the meeting, would Electionbuddy.com be a solution to folks not present, allowing them to vote on their phone during the prescribed time of the meeting, regardless of location? anyone familiar with this service?

Thanks in advance.

[Josh Martin]

On 8/22/2023 at 3:57 PM, Guest Guest Mitch S said:

Regarding Possible "electronic voting" at or during the meeting, would Electionbuddy.com be a solution to folks not present, allowing them to vote on their phone during the prescribed time of the meeting, regardless of location? anyone familiar with this service?

I'm not entirely certain whether your question is asking whether this is a permissible option now or whether this is a permissible option for a future amendment to the bylaws.

In the former case, the answer is "No."

"It is a fundamental principle of parliamentary law that the right to vote is limited to the members of an organization who are actually present at the time the vote is taken in a regular or properly called meeting, although it should be noted that a member need not be present when the question is put. Exceptions to this rule must be expressly stated in the bylaws." RONR (12th ed.) 45:56

In the latter case, if properly authorized in the bylaws and supported by appropriate rules, the assembly is free to authorize such absentee voting technology as it wishes. In regard to Election Buddy specifically, I have some familiarity with it and it generally seems to be a good service. It may be desirable to consider using this in conjunction with other technologies such as Zoom so that absent members also have an opportunity to listen to and participate in debate and make motions, rather than limiting their participation solely to voting.

Edited August 22, 2023 at 09:03 PM by Josh Martin

[Joshua Katz]

On 8/22/2023 at 3:57 PM, Guest Guest Mitch S said:

Regarding Possible "electronic voting" at or during the meeting, would Electionbuddy.com be a solution to folks not present, allowing them to vote on their phone during the prescribed time of the meeting, regardless of location?

No. As a few others have noted, unless the bylaws explicitly allow voting by those not present at a meeting, it is prohibited.

 

[Gary Novosielski]

<nul>

Edited August 22, 2023 at 10:57 PM by Gary Novosielski
delete

[Gary Novosielski]

On 8/22/2023 at 3:56 PM, Guest Guest Mitch S said:

His siting was regarding when the President asks if "everyone has had a chance to vote". To his thinking,  if there are ballots left over, the answer is no, and the election is incomplete.

That's nonsense.  The president is speaking to those in attendance, so "everyone" refers to everyone present.  People not there could not possibly hear him.

Blank ballots "left over" mean nothing.  There is no requirement that ballots even be printed, and could simply be blank sheets of paper.  In either case counting them tells you nothing.  It could be that members who wished to abstain simply didn't take a ballot. The only meaningful count of ballots is how many are actually cast.

This person with the opinions is apparently guilty of "motivated reasoning," where the reasons he gives are dependent upon the results he wants.  

Just follow the date given in the bylaws, that's the requirement approved by the membership, and the board has no power to overturn it anyway.

[Guest Mitch S]

So , here’s a question from our board. The by-laws state that it takes a 2/3rds majority of those present to change the bylaws or add amendments. 
Could someone propose allowing extended voting  or absentee voting for just THIS pending election before the voting starts, and can THAT pass by simple majority, as it’s not a change, but a one-time exception? 
 

[Atul Kapur]

No. This "exception" is, in fact, a motion to suspend the rules - in this case a rule that cannot be suspended (no absentee voting) because that would violate a fundamental principle of parliamentary law. The bylaws themselves can violate a fundamental principle, but you would need to amend the bylaws to do so, rather than try to suspend them. 

[Bruce Lages]

A one time exception to a rule in the bylaws can be made (although I don't think anyone here would recommend that),  but, unless that rule is in the  nature of a rule of order, it would still be an amendment and could only be adopted by following the procedures in the bylaws for their amendment.

[Josh Martin]

On 8/22/2023 at 7:58 PM, Guest Mitch S said:

So , here’s a question from our board. The by-laws state that it takes a 2/3rds majority of those present to change the bylaws or add amendments. 
Could someone propose allowing extended voting  or absentee voting for just THIS pending election before the voting starts, and can THAT pass by simple majority, as it’s not a change, but a one-time exception? 

No. A "one-time exception" to the rule in question is not permissible. Even if it was, the motion to Suspend the Rules with respect to a rule of order requires a 2/3 vote for adoption, not a majority vote.

"The rules of order of a society, as contained in the manual established by the bylaws as the parliamentary authority, or as included in any special rules of order adopted by the organization (see 2), are rules of parliamentary procedure, the suspension of which requires a two-thirds vote." RONR (12th ed.) 25:14

"Rules which embody fundamental principles of parliamentary law, such as the rule that allows only one question to be considered at a time (5:4), cannot be suspended, even by a unanimous vote. Thus, since it is a fundamental principle of parliamentary law that the right to vote is limited to the members of an organization who are actually present at the time the vote is taken in a regular or properly called meeting (45:56), the rules cannot be suspended so as to give the right to vote to a nonmember, or to authorize absentee voting (45:56ff.)." RONR (12th ed.) 25:7, emphasis added

The assembly may, if it wishes, amend the bylaws to permit absentee voting on particular matters, or conceivably could even amend the bylaws to permit absentee voting only for a single election, although that would be rather unusual. This would, however, require the same rules as for any amendments to the bylaws. I would also note that most organizations, in addition to a raised voting threshold, also require previous notice for bylaw amendments, but perhaps your bylaws do not require that.

You also make a reference to "extended voting." I am not entirely certain what you mean by this. To the extent this involves any method of absentee voting, the same advice applies as above.

There is, however, one method of "extended voting" where all members vote in person but there is greater flexibility for the times at which members cast their votes. This is described in RONR as "polling places," and is frequently used for large conventions. So conceivably the organization could establish one or more polling places, set the dates and hours of operation of the polling places, have volunteers at the polling places at the designated times, and ultimately collect and count the votes when all is said and done. This could be accomplished by a majority vote.

Edited August 23, 2023 at 11:10 AM by Josh Martin

[Guest Mitch S]

Josh - that last paragraph gives us hope for a quasi solution. Are you saying that the polling places, theoretically could be open for set hours  more than 1 day prior to  the actual meeting time  if the majority approves polling places?? Can it be beyond the meeting date as well? Or does this still qualify as absentee voting and need to be authorized in the bylaws?

Mitch

[Gary Novosielski]

On 8/23/2023 at 10:00 AM, Guest Mitch S said:

Josh - that last paragraph gives us hope for a quasi solution. Are you saying that the polling places, theoretically could be open for set hours  more than 1 day prior to  the actual meeting time  if the majority approves polling places?? Can it be beyond the meeting date as well? Or does this still qualify as absentee voting and need to be authorized in the bylaws?

Mitch

A problem with going beyond the meeting date, is that the meeting of the membership is where the vote is reported and the result stated by the chair.  Until that happens, you just have a tellers' committee with a report in their pocket. 

But you also need a meeting of the membership before the vote, to authorize polling places and decide the when and where.  The board does not run membership elections.

[Josh Martin]

On 8/23/2023 at 9:00 AM, Guest Mitch S said:

that last paragraph gives us hope for a quasi solution. Are you saying that the polling places, theoretically could be open for set hours  more than 1 day prior to  the actual meeting time  if the majority approves polling places??

Yes, although without also postponing the election, I'm not sure how this is possible. As I understand the facts, a meeting of the membership is not currently scheduled to be held prior to the election meeting.

Once again, only the membership (not the board) has the authority to make a decision in this matter.

On 8/23/2023 at 9:00 AM, Guest Mitch S said:

Can it be beyond the meeting date as well?

Yes, you could, however, it must be understood that the results must be announced at a meeting to be official. So the assembly will need to make sure that there is a meeting at which to do that, either because such a meeting is already scheduled, or by scheduling an adjourned meeting.

On 8/23/2023 at 9:00 AM, Guest Mitch S said:

Or does this still qualify as absentee voting and need to be authorized in the bylaws?

No. If all members vote in person, this is not absentee voting.

I would say this is... stretching the rules a bit. RONR does not seem to contemplate the use of this method outside of a multiple-day convention. But strictly speaking, it does not seem to be prohibited.

[Atul Kapur]

On 8/23/2023 at 10:00 AM, Guest Mitch S said:

Josh - that last paragraph gives us hope for a quasi solution.

It's a quasi-solution, but I'm still not convinced it's even a quasi-problem, let alone a real one. I assume that your current situation has been going on for years and was accepted until this one person raised this one objection based on a complete misunderstanding of RONR.

There are ways to increase turnout, including allowing absentee voting, but I recommend that, rather than jumping on a particular "fix", that you take the time to look at the various options and come to an answer that best serves the various and unique needs and desires of your organization and your members.

[puzzling]

Having a polling term that overlaps with a normal meeting where also members can vote is just asking for trouble.

Better organise that voting happens between meetings (or  voting can start as soon as the election is announced in first meeting, then members can vote till the next meeting , where the votes are counted and the result announced. (Or if the counting takes more time , close the voting earlier)

It all can get rather complicated (voting method,  what to do with incomplete elections, and so on) And it all needs to be in the bylaws.

[Josh Martin]

On 8/23/2023 at 11:35 AM, puzzling said:

Having a polling term that overlaps with a normal meeting where also members can vote is just asking for trouble.

Better organise that voting happens between meetings (or  voting can start as soon as the election is announced in first meeting, then members can vote till the next meeting , where the votes are counted and the result announced. (Or if the counting takes more time , close the voting earlier)

It all can get rather complicated (voting method,  what to do with incomplete elections, and so on) And it all needs to be in the bylaws.

So long as all members vote in person at polling places, and the results are announced at a meeting, this can be done without amending the bylaws.

[J. J.]

On 8/23/2023 at 7:09 AM, Josh Martin said:

There is, however, one method of "extended voting" where all members vote in person but there is greater flexibility for the times at which members cast their votes. This is described in RONR as "polling places," and is frequently used for large conventions. So conceivably the organization could establish one or more polling places, set the dates and hours of operation of the polling places, have volunteers at the polling places at the designated times, and ultimately collect and count the votes when all is said and done. This could be accomplished by a majority vote.

I will disagree with one point.  If the assembly is setting a time to close the polls, it will require a 2/3 vote (30:3 (7)).