election rules Incomplete election definition

[Josh Martin]

On 8/23/2023 at 1:05 PM, J. J. said:

I will disagree with one point.  If the assembly is setting a time to close the polls, it will require a 2/3 vote (30:3 (7)). 

Hm. I agree this is what the text says. Supposing the assembly has a majority vote but not a 2/3 vote to establish polling places, however, how exactly does that work? The text as written with regard to closing the polls does not seem to take polling places into account.

"Motions relating to opening and closing the polls are applicable only with respect to ballot votes. It is usually better to leave it to the chair to close the polls. When the vote is taken by ballot, as soon as the chair thinks that all have voted who wish to, he inquires if all have voted. If there is no response, he declares the polls closed, and the tellers proceed to count the vote." RONR (12th ed.) 30:7

How exactly does this rule apply in the case of polling places which will be in operation, at least in part, outside of a business meeting?

Edited August 23, 2023 at 06:11 PM by Josh Martin

[J. J.]

On 8/23/2023 at 2:10 PM, Josh Martin said:

Hm. I agree this is what the text says. Supposing the assembly has a majority vote but not a 2/3 vote to establish polling places, however, how exactly does that work? The text as written with regard to closing the polls does not seem to take polling places into account.

"Motions relating to opening and closing the polls are applicable only with respect to ballot votes. It is usually better to leave it to the chair to close the polls. When the vote is taken by ballot, as soon as the chair thinks that all have voted who wish to, he inquires if all have voted. If there is no response, he declares the polls closed, and the tellers proceed to count the vote." RONR (12th ed.) 30:7

How exactly does this rule apply in the case of polling places which will be in operation, at least in part, outside of a business meeting?

It stays open until the assembly meets and can close the polls, which is possible.

 

For example, assume that a meeting held on 7/7 votes to have an adjourned meeting on 7/14 at 7:00 PM.  They want to take a vote on Motion Z.  Someone could move "That the the polls be opened to vote on Motion Z at 6:00 PM on 7/14."  On 7/14 the polls would be opened at 6:00 PM and closed at some point during the meeting.  That could be done by a majority vote. 

30:7 is not applicable outside of a meeting. 

Edited August 23, 2023 at 06:24 PM by J. J.

[Josh Martin]

On 8/23/2023 at 1:23 PM, J. J. said:

It stays open until the assembly meets and can close the polls, which is possible.

For example, assume that a meeting held on 7/7 votes to have an adjourned meeting on 7/14 at 7:00 PM.  They want to take a vote on Motion Z.  Someone could move "That the the polls be opened to vote on Motion Z at 6:00 PM on 7/14."  On 7/14 the polls would be opened at 6:00 PM and closed at some point during the meeting.  That could be done by a majority vote. 

30:7 is not applicable outside of a meeting. 

This seems to suggest, as a practical matter, that it's only possible to have polling places outside of a meeting if:

• The assembly is able to keep them open continuously.
• The assembly is able to obtain a 2/3 vote, so that opening and closing times for the polls may be established.

I don't disagree with what you have written. It makes perfect sense. I am simply noting for the benefit of the OP that this will likely make the polling place strategy more difficult.

[J. J.]

On 8/23/2023 at 4:16 PM, Josh Martin said:

This seems to suggest, as a practical matter, that it's only possible to have polling places outside of a meeting if:

• The assembly is able to keep them open continuously.
• The assembly is able to obtain a 2/3 vote, so that opening and closing times for the polls may be established.

I don't disagree with what you have written. It makes perfect sense. I am simply noting for the benefit of the OP that this will likely make the polling place strategy more difficult.

Well, if there is support, they can get a 2/3 vote.  

[Gary Novosielski]

On 8/23/2023 at 12:35 PM, puzzling said:

Having a polling term that overlaps with a normal meeting where also members can vote is just asking for trouble.

I don't agree that this is necessarily a problem.  The meeting can simply be treated as a polling place.  If the procedures in RONR are followed, it should take care of itself.

[Mitch Stern]

to further clarify: The election is this Sunday but bylaws only says “held at meeting”, so no provisions for extraneous voting. We would like to propose BEFORE the voting begins to allow a manned polling place to remain open until the next meeting two weeks from now. Too many people unable to attend one or the other meeting so postponing won’t help. This is the first year in memory that the interest has been this high due to contested slate . 

[J. J.]

On 8/24/2023 at 3:07 PM, Mitch Stern said:

to further clarify: The election is this Sunday but bylaws only says “held at meeting”, so no provisions for extraneous voting. We would like to propose BEFORE the voting begins to allow a manned polling place to remain open until the next meeting two weeks from now. Too many people unable to attend one or the other meeting so postponing won’t help. This is the first year in memory that the interest has been this high due to contested slate . 

Could you quote the bylaw exactly. 

[Bruce Lages]

If the bylaws say that the election is held at a meeting then that would seem to preclude having a polling place open outside of a meeting. But it would be helpful if you can provide a complete and exact quote from your bylaws regarding elections.

 

[J. J.]

On 8/24/2023 at 3:38 PM, Bruce Lages said:

If the bylaws say that the election is held at a meeting then that would seem to preclude having a polling place open outside of a meeting. But it would be helpful if you can provide a complete and exact quote from your bylaws regarding elections.

 

It depends, because elections and polling are technically different.  Further, an election, even one set for a meeting by the bylaws, can be postponed when pending. 

[George Mervosh]

An exact quote from the bylaws would be nice, but I agree with J.J. here.  We know that it is a fundamental principle of parliamentary law that action can only be taken at a regular or properly called meeting, so saying "held at a meeting" is really nothing different at first blush.

I don't think that at all precludes having a polling place outside of a meeting setting, but the results would certainly need to be declared at a regular or properly called meeting for them to be valid.

 

[Mitch Stern]

The election of officers shall be done at the final regular meeting of the season. Voting shall be limited to members in good standing. Voting may be by secret ballot, if it is the majority in attendance at the meeting. 

[Mitch Stern]

This coming Sunday is the final “regular” meeting. Another meeting has been called for the 10th of Sept for an unrelated issue.

[J. J.]

On 8/24/2023 at 5:09 PM, Mitch Stern said:

The election of officers shall be done at the final regular meeting of the season. Voting shall be limited to members in good standing. Voting may be by secret ballot, if it is the majority in attendance at the meeting. 

It is what I expected.  The election must be held at the meeting, but that would include setting a polling place/time for some point apart from the meeting. 

[J. J.]

On 8/24/2023 at 5:02 PM, George Mervosh said:

 

I don't think that at all precludes having a polling place outside of a meeting setting, but the results would certainly need to be declared at a regular or properly called meeting for them to be valid.

 

Agreed on this point.  This could be an adjourned meeting. 

[J. J.]

On 8/24/2023 at 5:17 PM, Mitch Stern said:

This coming Sunday is the final “regular” meeting. Another meeting has been called for the 10th of Sept for an unrelated issue.

Is this meeting a special meeting and, if so, how much notice is needed? 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 8/24/2023 at 3:07 PM, Mitch Stern said:

to further clarify: The election is this Sunday but bylaws only says “held at meeting”, so no provisions for extraneous voting. We would like to propose BEFORE the voting begins to allow a manned polling place to remain open until the next meeting two weeks from now. Too many people unable to attend one or the other meeting so postponing won’t help. This is the first year in memory that the interest has been this high due to contested slate . 

If the bylaws explicitly say that the voting must take place at a meeting, then that is very likely what they mean.  

[J. J.]

On 8/24/2023 at 8:48 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

If the bylaws explicitly say that the voting must take place at a meeting, then that is very likely what they mean.  

They don't, if Mitch's post is accurate. 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 8/24/2023 at 11:23 PM, J. J. said:

They don't, if Mitch's post is accurate. 

They say votes are "held at a meeting".  Does that not mean held at a meeting?

[Josh Martin]

On 8/25/2023 at 4:01 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

They say votes are "held at a meeting".  Does that not mean held at a meeting?

Well, "held at a meeting" was a paraphrase. The exact wording has now been provided, which reads:

"The election of officers shall be done at the final regular meeting of the season. Voting shall be limited to members in good standing. Voting may be by secret ballot, if it is the majority in attendance at the meeting."

I am inclined to think the purpose of this rule is simply to provide the time at which the election is regularly held. I don't really think that providing for polling places which extend in part outside of a meeting violates this rule anymore than postponing the election does (provided that this is done when the election is pending).

[Atul Kapur]

On 8/25/2023 at 5:13 PM, Josh Martin said:

"The election of officers shall be done at the final regular meeting of the season. Voting shall be limited to members in good standing. Voting may be by secret ballot, if it is the majority in attendance at the meeting."

Am I the only one who doesn't understand the bolded part of the last sentence? Is there a word or two missing?

[Josh Martin]

On 8/25/2023 at 4:35 PM, Atul Kapur said:

Am I the only one who doesn't understand the bolded part of the last sentence? Is there a word or two missing?

No, it's confusing to me too, I've just been ignoring that problem.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 8/25/2023 at 6:00 PM, Josh Martin said:

No, it's confusing to me too, I've just been ignoring that problem.

Perhaps that means voting cannot be by secret ballot, since the not-unmeaningless phrase can't be declared true.