Local School Board Member Trying to Make His Own Rules (by either adding to RR or replacing)

[Joshua Katz]

On 4/19/2024 at 3:35 PM, Drake Savory said:

Isn't it the Chair's decision to use small board rules or not?  That it is not mandatory even if a small board?

I think it is mandatory and you'd need to suspend the rules to do otherwise (or adopt a special rule of order). But even if you disagree, why would it be at the chair's discretion?

[Drake Savory]

1:24 "certain modifications permitting greater and informality are commonly allowed" implies they are not required then references 49:21.  I agree that 49:21 strongly implies that those are the rules for small boards but it does not explicitly state that the rules are mandatory.  

On 4/19/2024 at 4:41 PM, Joshua Katz said:

But even if you disagree, why would it be at the chair's discretion?

Because if The Book(tm) gives a choice as how to run a meeting then naturally the Chair would decide unless small-board rules or no-small-board rules are written into the board's documents.  For me, the question is: if the Board wants to change the Chair's way of running the board meeting, would it be a majority vote or a two-thirds vote?

 

Edited April 20, 2024 at 01:32 PM by Drake Savory
Forgot the apostrophe in the genitive case.

[Joshua Katz]

On 4/20/2024 at 6:31 AM, Drake Savory said:

Because if The Book(tm) gives a choice as how to run a meeting then naturally the Chair would decide

I'll leave the other one as is, but I still don't follow your logic here. Why wouldn't the body decide? That's what seems natural to me - if there's a choice as to how to run a meeting, the body that is meeting decides.

[Josh Martin]

On 4/19/2024 at 5:35 PM, Drake Savory said:

Isn't it the Chair's decision to use small board rules or not?  That it is not mandatory even if a small board?

It's correct that it is not "mandatory" to use the small board rules, but this decision rests with the board, not with the chair.

For further discussions on this subject, you may wish to see this thread.

On 4/19/2024 at 5:41 PM, Joshua Katz said:

I think it is mandatory and you'd need to suspend the rules to do otherwise (or adopt a special rule of order).

I disagree. A small board is free to choose to use the rules ordinarily reserved for larger assemblies, in whole or in part. This does not require a suspension of the rules or a special rule of order.

Some of the proposed rules here, however, deviate from the default rules in RONR as well, so those rules would require a special rule of order.

On 4/20/2024 at 8:31 AM, Drake Savory said:

1:24 "certain modifications permitting greater and informality are commonly allowed" implies they are not required then references 49:21.  I agree that 49:21 strongly implies that those are the rules for small boards but it does not explicitly state that the rules are mandatory.  

Because if The Book(tm) gives a choice as how to run a meeting then naturally the Chair would decide unless small-board rules or no-small-board rules are written into the board's documents.

I do not follow how "naturally" the chair would decide. The power to make these decisions rests with the board, not with the chair acting alone. The chair is delegated the authority to enforce and interpret the rules which the assembly has adopted. The chair is not delegated the authority to determine which rules the board shall follow.

I take it that what you are getting at is - unless and until the board has made a decision on this matter, what rules are followed? In my view, this would be governed by the board's customs, not by the whims of the chair.

To the extent there is also no discernable custom in this matter, I would say the board is presumed to use the small board rules.

On 4/20/2024 at 8:31 AM, Drake Savory said:

For me, the question is: if the Board wants to change the Chair's way of running the board meeting, would it be a majority vote or a two-thirds vote?

I reject the framing of this question of "the Chair's way of running the board meeting," and will instead interpret this question as asking:

"If the board wishes to choose to follow the small board rules or to follow the rules ordinarily reserved for larger assemblies, does this require a majority vote or a two-thirds vote?"

In my view, the answer is a majority vote, assuming that the board has not adopted any rules of its own on these matters.

If the board wishes to adopt a rule which deviates from both the small board rules and the default rule, however, that will require a special rule of order, which requires for its adoption a 2/3 vote with previous notice or a vote of a majority of the entire membership. Additionally, the board can only adopt such rules provided that the board is either a.) not subordinate to a parent assembly or b.) is authorized by the organization's bylaws to adopt such rules. (The board in the present instance is an elected body, and is therefore free to adopt its own rules so long as such rules do not conflict with applicable law.)

Edited April 20, 2024 at 02:15 PM by Josh Martin

[Drake Savory]

On 4/20/2024 at 7:45 AM, Joshua Katz said:

Why wouldn't the body decide? That's what seems natural to me - if there's a choice as to how to run a meeting, the body that is meeting decides.

Because the body can decide, either through a special rule of order that they do/do not use small board rules or direct the Chair to use small board rules or not.  I'm saying that at the outset of the meeting the Chair would pick.  For example in a small board, and for the hypothetical let's assume it is optional to use SBR, an member moves to use SBR.  If the choice of rules is truly optional, would a second be required for that motion?  Who decides that?  Wouldn't it be the Chair, given that the body can overrule their decision upon an Appeal?

[Josh Martin]

On 4/20/2024 at 9:15 AM, Drake Savory said:

Because the body can decide, either through a special rule of order that they do/do not use small board rules or direct the Chair to use small board rules or not.  I'm saying that at the outset of the meeting the Chair would pick.

I agree with you that the body may decide on this matter, however, I do not agree "that at the outset of the meeting the Chair would pick."

On 4/20/2024 at 9:15 AM, Drake Savory said:

For example in a small board, and for the hypothetical let's assume it is optional to use SBR, an member moves to use SBR.  If the choice of rules is truly optional, would a second be required for that motion?  Who decides that? 

Yes, a second would be required, and the board would decide.

On 4/20/2024 at 9:15 AM, Drake Savory said:

Wouldn't it be the Chair, given that the body can overrule their decision upon an Appeal?

But as I understand the facts, a member did not raise a Point of Order that the small board rules are required to be followed. A member made a motion to use the small board rules.

If a member did in fact make a Point of Order on this matter, the chair would make a ruling on that, which would be subject to appeal. In my view, in the absence of any rules adopted by the board in this matter, the chair's ruling on such a question should be based on the board's customs, rather than the chair's personal preferences.

Once again, the power delegated to the chair is for the chair to enforce and interpret the assembly's rules, subject to appeal, not to make his own decisions about what rules the assembly will follow.

[Drake Savory]

On 4/20/2024 at 8:12 AM, Josh Martin said:

The power to make these decisions rests with the board, not with the chair acting alone.

But absent a Board's directive, who decides how to run the meeting ... at least until the Board has an opportunity to decide what rules to use?

In other words, I'm about to Chair a small-board meeting and the Board has not given a decision on which rules to use.  What rules are the default if SBR are not mandatory?  Why wouldn't it be the ones that I qua Chair choose to facilitate the meeting unless directed otherwise by the Board.

 

This is not an idle question for me (as you can tell).  I am a member of a small board (that has no clue SBR's even exist) and when I made a motion and a second was requested, I made a Point of Order that under small board rules, a second was not required.  I was told by the Chair that he chose to operate under the formal rules and my point was not well taken.  Looking it up, I read 1:24 as as y'all can tell I read that as yes SBR are optional.  The question is now, up until that time when the body could have said we use SBR, why was it improper for the Chair to choose which optional rules to run the meeting by?

[J. J.]

On 4/20/2024 at 10:23 AM, Drake Savory said:

But absent a Board's directive, who decides how to run the meeting ... at least until the Board has an opportunity to decide what rules to use?

 

The assembly, via a point of order.

[Drake Savory]

On 4/20/2024 at 8:19 AM, Josh Martin said:

I agree with you that the body may decide on this matter, however, I do not agree "that at the outset of the meeting the Chair would pick."

Then if the choice is truly optional and the board has not made a decision, what rules are used to start a meeting?

[Drake Savory]

On 4/20/2024 at 8:19 AM, Josh Martin said:

In my view, in the absence of any rules adopted by the board in this matter, the chair's ruling on such a question should be based on the board's customs, rather than the chair's personal preferences.

That makes sense.  Thank you.

Gotta love a ton of simulposts.

 

Next question: would a motion specifying using SBR or the full rules (custom states we use X, I want to use the other one) for that specific meeting require a majority vote or a two-thirds vote?  No rule is being suspended and no special rule superceding a rule in RONR is being moved.

Edited April 20, 2024 at 02:31 PM by Drake Savory

[Rob Elsman]

On 4/19/2024 at 5:35 PM, Drake Savory said:

Isn't it the Chair's decision to use small board rules or not?  That it is not mandatory even if a small board?

No, the chair, alone, does not have the authority to decide this question.  Usually, there isn't much problem.  The "unrelaxed" rules for larger assemblies make the proceedings in small boards awkward and embarrassing, so a small board will soon enough realize that it needs to use the rules for small boards.  I do not see much cause for contention, but the chair, alone, is not the one to make the decision.

[Josh Martin]

On 4/20/2024 at 9:23 AM, Drake Savory said:

But absent a Board's directive, who decides how to run the meeting ... at least until the Board has an opportunity to decide what rules to use?

In the absence of a directive in this matter, the chair should follow the board's customs in this regard. In the event there is also an absence of custom on this subject (as I suppose may be the case if the board is meeting for the first time), my own view is that the chair should presume the use of the small board rules for a small board.

I would again direct you to this thread.

On 4/20/2024 at 9:23 AM, Drake Savory said:

In other words, I'm about to Chair a small-board meeting and the Board has not given a decision on which rules to use.  What rules are the default if SBR are not mandatory?

Assuming this is a board which has continuing existence, I would inquire as to the board's customs on this matter, to the extent you do not already know the board's customs.

On 4/20/2024 at 9:23 AM, Drake Savory said:

Why wouldn't it be the ones that I qua Chair choose to facilitate the meeting unless directed otherwise by the Board.

Because nothing in RONR authorizes the chair to choose the rules that the assembly will follow.

On 4/20/2024 at 9:23 AM, Drake Savory said:

This is not an idle question for me (as you can tell).  I am a member of a small board (that has no clue SBR's even exist) and when I made a motion and a second was requested, I made a Point of Order that under small board rules, a second was not required.  I was told by the Chair that he chose to operate under the formal rules and my point was not well taken.  Looking it up, I read 1:24 as as y'all can tell I read that as yes SBR are optional.  The question is now, up until that time when the body could have said we use SBR, why was it improper for the Chair to choose which optional rules to run the meeting by?

I don't know that I can definitely say the chair's ruling was improper because I do not know the full context. It may well be the ruling was correct, because it may be that it was this board's custom to follow the rules ordinarily reserved for larger assemblies.

But I continue to maintain that the chair cannot decide whether the board shall use the small board rules (or not) solely on the basis of the chair's personal preferences.

On 4/20/2024 at 9:25 AM, Drake Savory said:

Then if the choice is truly optional and the board has not made a decision, what rules are used to start a meeting?

The board should follow its past customs in this regard. In the absence of any customs as well, my view would be that the small board rules would be followed.

On 4/20/2024 at 9:28 AM, Drake Savory said:

Next question: would a motion specifying using SBR or the full rules (custom states we use X, I want to use the other one) for that specific meeting require a majority vote or a two-thirds vote?  No rule is being suspended and no special rule superceding a rule in RONR is being moved.

A majority vote.

"In some organizations, a particular practice may sometimes come to be followed as a matter of established custom so that it is treated practically as if it were prescribed by a rule. If there is no contrary provision in the parliamentary authority or written rules of the organization, such an established custom is adhered to unless the assembly, by a majority vote, agrees in a particular instance to do otherwise." RONR (12th ed.) 2:25

[Gary Novosielski]

On 4/20/2024 at 8:31 AM, Drake Savory said:

1:24 "certain modifications permitting greater and informality are commonly allowed" implies they are not required then references 49:21.  I agree that 49:21 strongly implies that those are the rules for small boards but it does not explicitly state that the rules are mandatory.  

Because if The Book(tm) gives a choice as how to run a meeting then naturally the Chair would decide unless small-board rules or no-small-board rules are written into the board's documents.  For me, the question is: if the Board wants to change the Chair's way of running the board meeting, would it be a majority vote or a two-thirds vote?

 

I don't understand how the chair would "naturally" decide.  The chair's role is to facilitate decision-making by the assembly, not to make unilateral decisions.