Discussion prior to a motion

[Guest Guest Erin]

I don't know anything about Roberts Rules of Order. We had a Board of Supervisors meeting at our county in Arizona, comment was closed on an item, and the vote was postponed from the last meeting because not all of the supervisors were present. The chairman asked if there was any discussion. Immediately a supervisor answered that the county attorney had received a call from the applicant's attorney stating there was a location change for the item, and that supervisor made a motion which was immediately seconded. Only 2 out of 5 supervisors voted against. After the motion, one of the supervisors asked if there had been any discussion prior to the motion. The chairman said that he had opened it for discussion. But really, it all happened so fast that there was no room for discussion since there was an immediate motion that was seconded. Were any rules violated in this process?

[J. J.]

Under RONR, no motion requires debate, though many are debatable. 

No rule was broken. 

[Guest Erin]

On 5/7/2024 at 2:38 PM, J. J. said:

Under RONR, no motion requires debate, though many are debatable. 

No rule was broken. 

Thank you! What if one supervisor after the meeting wrote an email to us saying that he had heard ahead of time one supervisor say to the other: "I will make a motion, and you can second it?"

[Richard Brown]

On 5/7/2024 at 3:58 PM, Guest Guest Erin said:

Were any rules violated in this process?

I agree with JJ that no rules appear to have been broken.  The opportunity for debate is required, but debate itself is not required.  It also violates no rule for two members to agree that one of them will sponsor a bill, ordinance or motion and that the other one will second it.  In fact, that is rather common.  Any prohibition on that would have to be in your own rules or state law.

[Josh Martin]

On 5/7/2024 at 3:58 PM, Guest Guest Erin said:

I don't know anything about Roberts Rules of Order. We had a Board of Supervisors meeting at our county in Arizona, comment was closed on an item, and the vote was postponed from the last meeting because not all of the supervisors were present. The chairman asked if there was any discussion. Immediately a supervisor answered that the county attorney had received a call from the applicant's attorney stating there was a location change for the item, and that supervisor made a motion which was immediately seconded. Only 2 out of 5 supervisors voted against. After the motion, one of the supervisors asked if there had been any discussion prior to the motion. The chairman said that he had opened it for discussion. But really, it all happened so fast that there was no room for discussion since there was an immediate motion that was seconded. Were any rules violated in this process?

On 5/7/2024 at 5:08 PM, Guest Erin said:

Thank you! What if one supervisor after the meeting wrote an email to us saying that he had heard ahead of time one supervisor say to the other: "I will make a motion, and you can second it?"

None of this violates any rule in Robert's Rules of Order.

What you appear to be alleging is that there may have been conversations between the supervisors outside of a public meeting. Even to the extent that was correct, that is not a Robert's Rules issue. Rather, that would be a question concerning the state's "Open Meeting Law" or "Sunshine Law." Such questions are beyond the scope of RONR and this forum.

[rulesasker]

On 5/7/2024 at 3:58 PM, Guest Guest Erin said:

it all happened so fast that there was no room for discussion since there was an immediate motion that was seconded

The chair is required to allow debate (this should have occurred after the second was made and before the vote rather than before the motion). The others are correct here that if the chair allowed for debate, then no rule was broken. But if he acted in such a way that someone who was seeking the floor before the vote was not able to speak, then he did violate 43:7.

[Rob Elsman]

RONR (12th ed.) advises that the proper behavior for the chair is not to "gavel through" the proceeding so fast that members are deprived of the legitimate exercise of their rights.  This chairman is either incompetent or a bully.  Nevertheless, no one seems to have raised a Point of Order, so what is done is done.  As I understand it, members of the Board of Supervisors are elected, and the voters are free to kick this person out at any election where they decide they want someone better.

[Joshua Katz]

On 5/7/2024 at 5:32 PM, rulesasker said:

The chair is required to allow debate (this should have occurred after the second was made and before the vote rather than before the motion).

True, but given the size of the assembly, I'd say both were in order. The question, in my mind, is whether there was room for disussion left after the motion was made and seconded. I don't think I know the facts well enough to say that the chair provided an opportunity for debate once there was a motion.

On 5/7/2024 at 1:58 PM, Guest Guest Erin said:

After the motion, one of the supervisors asked if there had been any discussion prior to the motion. The chairman said that he had opened it for discussion. But really, it all happened so fast that there was no room for discussion since there was an immediate motion that was seconded.

OP, you've taken us up to the crucial part, but then stopped. What happened after the motion was made and seconded?

[rulesasker]

On 5/7/2024 at 7:49 PM, Rob Elsman said:

Nevertheless, no one seems to have raised a Point of Order, so what is done is done. 

Why isn’t this covered by the exception for violations of basic rights of members in 23:6(e)?

[Rob Elsman]

The parliamentary right of members taken as a whole (as opposed to the basic right of an individual member) to debate is suspendable, as evidenced by the motions, Limit or Extend the Limits of Debate and Previous Question.  

[Gary Novosielski]

On 5/7/2024 at 8:56 PM, Joshua Katz said:

But really, it all happened so fast that there was no room for discussion since there was an immediate motion that was seconded.

But when there has been a motion and a second that is the point where discussion begins, not ends.  

And the member who waited until the motion was adopted before raising the issue of debate waited too long.  The time to raise a Point of Order was immediately as soon as the chair put the question, before voting had begun.  Waiting until the motion was adopted means that a point of order would not have been timely.

[Rob Elsman]

Boards of Supervisors in Arizona are small-enough that some of the "patterns of formality" can be somewhat relaxed.  I am not particularly disturbed about the debate that occurred, out of which a motion seems to have been crystalized.  I am much more concerned about the peremptory way that the chair seems to have abused his authority by "calling the question" without a vote, as if he were the Grand Poohbah of the proceedings. 

[Joshua Katz]

On 5/7/2024 at 6:33 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

But when there has been a motion and a second that is the point where discussion begins, not ends.  

 

Well, it was a small board. But I'm confused why you're quoting this as if I said it, rather than quoted it.

On 5/7/2024 at 6:41 PM, Rob Elsman said:

Boards of Supervisors in Arizona are small-enough that some of the "patterns of formality" can be somewhat relaxed.  I am not particularly disturbed about the debate that occurred, out of which a motion seems to have been crystalized.  I am much more concerned about the peremptory way that the chair seems to have abused his authority by "calling the question" without a vote, as if he were the Grand Poohbah of the proceedings. 

I agree.

[Guest Erin]

On 5/7/2024 at 5:56 PM, Joshua Katz said:

True, but given the size of the assembly, I'd say both were in order. The question, in my mind, is whether there was room for disussion left after the motion was made and seconded. I don't think I know the facts well enough to say that the chair provided an opportunity for debate once there was a motion.

OP, you've taken us up to the crucial part, but then stopped. What happened after the motion was made and seconded?

After the motion they had a vote. The first and second people that made the motion voted yes to postpone the meeting, and the other two supervisors voted no. They immediately went on to the next item on the schedule, but then one of the supervisors who voted no asked if the discussion had been opened. The chair said yes he had opened it (he did ask if there was any discussion but the motion went so fast afterwards that there was never a breath for anyone to say anything.) I think the whole thing happened in 2 minutes or less.

[Guest Erin]

If anyone is interested, here is the transcript attached as a pdf. If it is easier I can also paste it in a comment?

Transcript Excerpt .pdf

[Guest Erin]

Here it is pasted instead of attached:

 

Chair: And then item number 11 we're going to take at this moment. Uh I know a lot of individuals are here because of item number 11, so we felt it best to move that up. So, is there any other discussions or anything that needs to happen? 

Supervisor 1: Mr. Chair, as of last night we received notice, uh, from applicant’s counsel and our counsel and we've been asked to, uh, continue this item to June 5th so that we can work with staff and the applicant to resolve the location issue. So I'm asking that we continue this item to June 5th. 

Chair: Okay do we have a so that's a motion?

Supervisor 1: It's a motion yes.

Chair: Okay and then 

Supervisor 1: sorry yes I'm not only asking but I'm making a motion. 

Chair: Okay just want to make sure that's clear. Is there is there a second on that motion?

Supervisor 2: I'll second 

Chair: Okay we have a motion and a second um all in favor say “Aye.”

Supervisor 2,chair, Supervisor 1: Aye.

Chair: Any opposed?

Supervisor 3: Nay. 

Supervisor 4: Nay. 

Chair: Okay the eyes have it. So we're going to move this and uh, when, when's the next date the 15th? 

Supervisor 1: June 5

Chair: oh June 5th

Supervisor 2: That was in the motion. 

Chair: right.

: Yes that was a part of it.

Supervisor 2: June 5th was in the motion.

Chair: Okay, June 5th. Okay, all right uh now we're going to go back and we'll start with item number two. County manager's report. 

Supervisor 1: Mr. Chairman, 

Chair: Yes. 

Supervisor 3: A point of I guess it would be a point of parliamentary inquiry. Did we have debate on the item? Did you open for debate?

Chair: Um, he's asking if we had it if I opened it up for debate, I did ask if there was any any more discussion or anything else of that nature before the motion was made.

Supervisor 2: After the motion was made.

Chair: no I it was before. 

Supervisor 2: Was it before?

Chair: Yeah, I asked for if there was any other discussion or anything, before the motion was even made.

Supervisor 3: My ears were listening slower than you were speaking.

Chair: Oh, and I'm a pretty slow speaker too on top of that. Okay, um, yeah, so let's go to item number two, County Manager.

[Guest Erin]

Here is the Transcript:

 

Chair: And then item number 11 we're going to take at this moment. Uh I know a lot of individuals are here because of item number 11, so we felt it best to move that up. So, is there any other discussions or anything that needs to happen? 

Supervisor 1: Mr. Chair, as of last night we received notice, uh, from applicant’s counsel and our counsel and we've been asked to, uh, continue this item to June 5th so that we can work with staff and the applicant to resolve the location issue. So I'm asking that we continue this item to June 5th. 

Chair: Okay do we have a so that's a motion?

Supervisor 1: It's a motion yes.

Chair: Okay and then 

Supervisor 1: sorry yes I'm not only asking but I'm making a motion. 

Chair: Okay just want to make sure that's clear. Is there is there a second on that motion?

Supervisor 2: I'll second 

Chair: Okay we have a motion and a second um all in favor say “Aye.”

Supervisor 2,chair, Supervisor 1: Aye.

Chair: Any opposed?

Supervisor 3: Nay. 

Supervisor 4: Nay. 

Chair: Okay the eyes have it. So we're going to move this and uh, when, when's the next date the 15th? 

Supervisor 1: June 5

Chair: oh June 5th

Supervisor 2: That was in the motion. 

Chair: right.

: Yes that was a part of it.

Supervisor 2: June 5th was in the motion.

Chair: Okay, June 5th. Okay, all right uh now we're going to go back and we'll start with item number two. County manager's report. 

Supervisor 1: Mr. Chairman, 

Chair: Yes. 

Supervisor 3: A point of I guess it would be a point of parliamentary inquiry. Did we have debate on the item? Did you open for debate?

Chair: Um, he's asking if we had it if I opened it up for debate, I did ask if there was any any more discussion or anything else of that nature before the motion was made.

Supervisor 2: After the motion was made.

Chair: no I it was before. 

Supervisor 2: Was it before?

Chair: Yeah, I asked for if there was any other discussion or anything, before the motion was even made.

Supervisor 3: My ears were listening slower than you were speaking.

Chair: Oh, and I'm a pretty slow speaker too on top of that. Okay, um, yeah, so let's go to item number two, County Manager.

[rulesasker]

He opened the floor for debate, but he did not allow all to debate who wished. He should have asked if there was further debate after supervisor 1 spoke.

On 5/7/2024 at 11:18 PM, Guest Erin said:

Supervisor 3: My ears were listening slower than you were speaking.

Chair: Oh, and I'm a pretty slow speaker too on top of that. Okay, um, yeah, so let's go to item number two, County Manager.

Supervisor 3 (or someone else) should have raised a point of order that he was not allowed to debate. Maybe the chair thinks his “um” after stating the motion and second was enough of a pause for someone to speak up. But since there’s obviously doubt he should have asked the motion to be done again and explicitly asked if there was further debate before putting the vote. 

[rulesasker]

On 5/7/2024 at 8:33 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Waiting until the motion was adopted means that a point of order would not have been timely.

Doesn’t 43:7 say that the chair can’t cut off debate by putting the question so quickly that members can’t get the floor, and the vote can be discarded even after the motion is adopted? 

[Joshua Katz]

On 5/7/2024 at 8:51 PM, Guest Erin said:

After the motion they had a vote.

I concur that here and elsewhere, there was no effective allowance of debate on this.

[Rob Elsman]

I agree with Mr. Katz.  I cannot tell without the context whether the chairman is just woefully incompetent or willfully bullying, but it is clear from all that has been written that the "patterns of formality" have been completely abandoned, not "relaxed".  The upshot is that other members of the board have been improperly shut out of the proceedings by the Grand Poohbah Of All-Arizona.  Nothing is likely to improve until this person, who seems to have neither the proper temperament nor the proper training, is voted out or expelled somehow.

The first step in learning to be a competent chairman is to recognize from the beginning that the chairman is not His Worshipful, Master of the Assembly; rather, the chairman must look upon himself as a servant to the assembly, exercising his office in such a way that the possibility of the deliberative process is enhanced, not diminished.  The role is a role of service, not lordship.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 5/7/2024 at 9:48 PM, Joshua Katz said:

But I'm confused why you're quoting this as if I said it, rather than quoted it.

So am I, now that you mention it.

[Guest Erin]

I really appreciate everyone's input. I found our board meeting rules of order. Are they any different from Roberts Rules of Order? I think they are supposed to be based on them:

 

These Rules of Order supersede any resolutions or policies adopted by previous Boards of Supervisors

I MEETINGS

The Arizona Open Meeting Law, ARS 38-431, shall govern meetings of the Board of Supervisors. All meetings of any County public body, official or advisory committee, shall be public, and all persons so desiring shall be permitted to attend and listen to the deliberations and proceedings.

ll ChairpersonandVice-Chairperson

A) The presiding officer of the Board shall be the Chairperson who shall be elected yearly from the membership of the Board. The Vice-Chairperson shall be elected yearly following the election of the Chairperson and shall serve in the absence ofthe Chairperson. The Chairperson, or in his/her absence, the Vice-Chairperson, shall be responsible for calling meetings to order and maintaining proper protocol and decorum during all meetings.

All motions, comments, and questions shall be made through the Chairperson. The Chairperson shall decide all points of order and procedure subject to appeal to the membership unless otherwise noted herein.
C) ln the case of an appeal to the membership concerning a ruling of the Chairperson, the question to the membership for vote shall be: "Shall the decision of the Chairperson stand as the decision of the Board?" The member making the appeal may state his/her reasons for the same, and the Chairperson may explarn hisiher ruling; but there shall be no debate on the appeal and no other members shall participate in the discussion. No second shall be required for an appeal and all members in attendance shall vote on the appeal.
D) The Chairperson may make or second any motion made by a member and shall declare all votes. lf any member questions the vote, the chair will order a roll call.
E) The Chairperson shall have the authority to limit the time for debate on any topic or item by a member but not the ability to eliminate debate. The Chairperson shall make every effort to not allow debate to digress to personal attacks. lt should be emphasized it is not the person, but the measure, issue or item under question, that is the subject of debate. ln the same spirit, other Board members should not disparage each other, county employees or presenters.
F) The Chairperson shall have the authority to limit or expand the extent of, or suspend public comment or call to the public for any particular meeting but shall provide an explanation for the membership. The decision shall not be appealable.

lll. Agenda

A) The Chairperson or any member of the Board may request to reorder any item on the agenda without a vote of the membership. The Chairperson's decision shall be final as related to this matter County Office of Authority or designee in consultation with the County Manager may add an item to

the agenda. However, the prior approval of the Chairperson to add items to the agenda shall be required if within eight days of a regularly scheduled meeting or 48 hours of a special meeting. Notice of such a request will be provided by the Clerk of the Board to the remaining members for informational purposes.

lV. Motions

A) All Board action shall be made by way of a formal motion. Any Board member may propose a motion on any item on the official agenda. Any motion that is seconded by any member shall be on the floor and must be considered. lf a motion is not seconded, the motion fails for a lack of a second and shall be so declared by the Chairperson. The following motions are authorized by this Board:

• 1)  Motion to Approve
• 2)  Motion to Disapprove
• 3)  Motion to continue to a specific date
• 4)  Motion to amend
• 5)  Motion to table indefinitely
• 6)  Motion to reconsider (see C below)
• 7)  Motion to suspend the rules (see O below)

After a motion has been seconded, the Chairperson shall call for the vote. The Chairperson may also call for the vote if it appears any further discussion or debate will be repetitious.

C) A motion to reconsider the vote on any item must be made within 24 hours from the adjournment of the board meeting and must be made by a member who voted on the prevailing side of the item. A member requesting reconsideration following the adjournment of a meeting shall file a letter requesting reconsideratron with the Clerk of the Board. A motion for reconsideration, having been made once and decided in the negative, shall not be renewed or allowed to be amended. No request for reconsideration of a contract award shall be made unless there is evidence of an improper award.

D) A motion to suspend the rules requires a supermajority of those members of the Board present to enable the Board to set aside one or more of its procedural rules that would otherwise prevent consideration of a certain action. A motion to suspend the rules suspends only those rules which specifically interfere with the consideration of the particular action involved. The rules are only suspended temporarily and are automatically reactivated after the proposed action has been considered. A motion to suspend the rules is not debatable and not amendable.

V. Point of Personal Privilege

A point of personal privilege may be granted by the Chairperson but shall be limited to

. address issues of noise, temperature or
. recognize a dignitary in the attendance or
. a passing of an individual.

Vl. Voting

A) All members of the Board shall be required to cast either an AYE or NAY vote unless they have previously declared a conflict of interest and submitted such in writing to the Clerk of the Board. To the extent any such conflict has been declared, the member shall refrain from participating in any manner in the matter, including discussion, debate or executive session.

ln the case of a tie vote on an item, the item shall be considered defeated

C) When it has been decided to call for the vote on an item, all debate on the item shall be deemed concluded, and during the vote no member shall be permitted to explain their vote; however after the vote has been taken, a member shall be permitted to briefly explain the reasoning for their vote.

D) When a roll call vote is requested or required, a member may pass on the first roll call but must vote AYE or NAY on the second and final roll call. When a roll call is commenced, no member may leave his/her seat until the vote has been disclosed.

Vll. Decorum

A) When a member desires to speak or make a motion, the member will address the Chairperson and upon being recognized may then address the Board.

No member may interrupt another except to raise a "point of order" or to correct a mistake. A "point of orde/' must be timely and is proper when a member believes the discussion is in error or not germane to the issue before the Board. A point of order does not require a second and the Chairperson's decision shall control unless an appeal is taken.

[Guest Erin]

I apologize, I did not intend to inject any emojis above! I wish I could edit posts.

[Joshua Katz]

On 5/9/2024 at 10:39 AM, Guest Erin said:

I apologize, I did not intend to inject any emojis above! I wish I could edit posts.

Feel free to join our little forum and gain that ability!

The rules there are, first, an attempt both to condense a very large book into a couple pages, and to make changes to it. That's an impossible task, and, if these rules are followed, your meetings are different than RONR. Some of those differences, such as in Motions, may be driven by law. Others (also in Motions) may be driven by a desire to sound "official." Either way, if they are properly adopted, I guess they are your rules of order.