second by discussion

[Guest Sue]

Our board frequently uses a "second by discussion". In Section 17, Strategies for Individual Motions Illustrated, paragraph 2 states "If the motion does not get a second, it is not placed before the assembly. However, if members begin debating a motion that does not have a second, the fact that it ws never seconded is a moot point. After discussion begins, no one can stop the discussion on the motion nor prevent a vote on it because it was not seconded." Is this section considered to be an exception rather than a rule? If a "second by discussion" is allowed, why does the motion have to be seconded? How is a motion rescinded or amended if the second was by discussion?

[hmtcastle]

Is this section considered to be an exception rather than a rule?

Yes. And it's not from the current edition of RONR, the focus of this forum.

If a "second by discussion" is allowed, why does the motion have to be seconded?

The purpose of a second is to indicate that more than one member (the maker of the motion) thinks the question is worth considering.

How is a motion rescinded or amended if the second was by discussion?

The same way as if it had received the required second.

And note that there is no "second by discussion". A motion is either seconded or it's not. If debate begins (improperly) without a second, the lack of a second is moot. But the debate does not constitute a second.

[Gary Novosielski]

Our board frequently uses a "second by discussion". In Section 17, Strategies for Individual Motions Illustrated, paragraph 2 states "If the motion does not get a second, it is not placed before the assembly. However, if members begin debating a motion that does not have a second, the fact that it ws never seconded is a moot point. After discussion begins, no one can stop the discussion on the motion nor prevent a vote on it because it was not seconded." Is this section considered to be an exception rather than a rule? If a "second by discussion" is allowed, why does the motion have to be seconded? How is a motion rescinded or amended if the second was by discussion?

It is an "exception, and is not proper procedure. It's usually caused by a sloppy chair, who permits discussion to start before a motion has been seconded. Sloppy chairs are common.

However, in small boards, of no more than about a dozen, seconds are not required in the first place (so to speak). Since the rules are relaxed in small assemblies, the procedure you outlined might be fine, depending on the size of your board.

But whether a motion is seconded or not never has any effect on the method of subsequent amendment or rescission. What makes you think that would matter?

[jstackpo]

Also, since seconds are not required in Boards at all (RONR, p. 470) there is no need to worry about a "second by discussion".

Just move it, and start discussing it.

[Tim Wynn]

Also, since seconds are not required in Boards at all (RONR, p. 470)

"At all?" I can't believe you wrote "at all." One wonders if you meant "thAT are smALL."

[George Mervosh]

"At all?" I can't believe you wrote "at all." One wonders if you meant "thAT are smALL."

I like John's rule better.

(and it's not as drastic as our other colleague who drops the "not" )

[Guest Dan]

Is it OK to vote on a motion Immediately if there is no second or discussion?

[Robert B Fish]

Is it OK to vote on a motion Immediately if there is no second or discussion?

If a second to the motion is required, the chairman should wait for someone to second the motion. If no second if forthcoming, he/she should declare that the motion was not seconded and move to the next item of business.

Let's say, however, that either no second was required or the chairman moved ahead anyhow. Then, when he/she called for debate, there was none. He should then inquire, "Are you ready for the question?" If there is no debate, he should put the question to a vote, announce the result and proceed to the next item of business.

Your members do not appreciate silliness parading as overly officious procedure.

-Bob

[Kim Goldsworthy]

Is it OK to vote on a motion Immediately if there is no second or discussion?

"No second"?

No, you don't vote.

The chair sweeps the unwanted motion under the rug. -- "The motion is not before this meeting."

"No discussion"?

Yes, if there was a second.

You cannot force people to debate.

The motion might be obvious in its intent and reasonableness, and have no reasonable opposition.

[Rob Elsman]

Our board frequently uses a "second by discussion". In Section 17, Strategies for Individual Motions Illustrated, paragraph 2 states "If the motion does not get a second, it is not placed before the assembly. However, if members begin debating a motion that does not have a second, the fact that it ws never seconded is a moot point. After discussion begins, no one can stop the discussion on the motion nor prevent a vote on it because it was not seconded." Is this section considered to be an exception rather than a rule? If a "second by discussion" is allowed, why does the motion have to be seconded? How is a motion rescinded or amended if the second was by discussion?

Routine motions, or those whose consideration is clearly desired by the assembly, are often stated by the chair without waiting for a second. There is no problem with this as long as the regular rule is observed if anyone objects. See RONR (10th ed.), p. 35, l. 18, through p. 36, l. 2.

[David A Foulkes]

Is it OK to vote on a motion Immediately if there is no second or discussion?

As I read your question, it went something like this:

Member: I move that we paint the old barn red.

Chair: All in favor say aye. (and continuing)

The questions needing to be answered are:

1. Did the chair wait for a second, or inquire of the membership if there was one when none was forthcoming?

2. Did the chair state the question? (that is repeat the motion exactly as the member moved it)

3. Did the chair indicate debate was now in order? (typically by acknowledging the maker as the first to speak)

4. Did the chair put the question? (that is ask if the assembly was ready for the question, and then repeat the exact wording as moved?)

5. Did the chair (after calling for ayes and nos) announce the results?

All of these should have been done, in most cases. Seconds aren't always required, and some motions are undebatable (and unamendable), although main motions require all three.

I think ultimately that while the chair (if my example above is pretty much how it went) handled this improperly on several levels, if no one raised at Point Of Order at the time, the vote would stand. This is not to say the motion can't be Rescinded or Amended (Amend Something Previously Adopted), or deemed null and void if it violated the bylaws or other rules and a Point of Order is raised at a subsequent meeting.

It's up to the membership to know the rules and parliamentary law as much as it is the chair's, and more-so when the chair clearly is lacking.