Blackball vote

[Guest Louise]

We are a civic organization that is comprised of women. However, we do have a "sub" group under us that is made up of 35 men. We condsider them to be a part of our Organization as the "woman" member has to be the Sponsor for the "man" to join. The women do have a "Constitution & By-Laws", whereas, the "men" have "Rules & Regulations". Whenever their rules do not adddress an issue (within their group), they are to adhere to the By-Laws of the organization. In the following context, I am removing the group's name & replacing with "women" & "men", I hope this does not cause confusion.

Our by-laws simply state:

Section 1

The "Men" shall become a permanent addition to the "women" and expulsion of its members may only be accomplished by following the "women's" disciplinary procedures in article X-Section 1 through 9, of the by-laws.

Section 2

"The men" are subject to the Constitution and By-Laws of "the women". They shall govern themselves and do so within the constraints of the by-laws of the "women". The Executive Board has the authority to enforce the by-laws and ensure necessary and proper conduct of the "Men" as a group as well as any individual "man in that group".

PROBLEM: One of the "men" became very boisterous at their mtg. The comments made were lewd (foul language & telling them exactly what they could do; I am refraining from putting his exact words on a public forum)lascivious & very disturbing to the men in that room. The Seargeant at Arms proceeded to try & stop this member from this conduct, but it continued to get worse until they just adjourned the mtg. Thus, the "SAA" of the "men", submitted a letter (certified) to the Executive Board of "the women". The letter did not request discipline or a fine. The "Men" have requested this member be expelled and/or blackballed from the organization altogether.....This is where things become a bit touchy, as our By-Laws are a bit conflicting & ambiguous.

We do have an Investigating committee included in our By-Laws of the organization (below is their description):

Section 6

The Investigating committee will consist of ten (10) active members, chosen by a random lottery drawing. The Investigating committee will be asked to investigate all allegations brought against a member for violating the constitution, by-law, and standing rules of the "women". This committee will choose a chair person. There must be 2/3 of this committee present to discuss and investigate allegations. This committee will be in charge of checking ID’s at the front door of all functions to assure no one under the age of 21 is allowed in.

Now, I will give you a list of our Disciplinary Procedures (from the "women's" by-laws):

Article 10 - Disciplinary Procedures

Section 1

The discipline of the society shall be vested in the Executive Board and subject to the provisions listed within these rules. For any disciplinary actions taken, all board members are to be notified of any and all meetings concerning any violations or disciplinary actions.

Section 2

Any member who violates the constitution, by-laws, standing rules, ball rules, parade rules or pledge of the society shall be liable to have a fine imposed and/or up to expulsion from membership if recommended by Executive Board.

Section 3

All allegations brought against a member must be done so in writing and sent by certified mail. The accused member shall be notified by certified mail of accusations. The accused member of the society has the right to request a copy of the letter of the accuser. She/He will be given every chance to defend her/himself to the Executive Board and to the membership. Any unsigned letters will be discarded and not addressed.

Section 4

Any member has the right to appeal the punishment imposed by appealing first to the board and

then to the membership. The member has ten (10) days from the postmarked letter to make an appeal to the board.

Section 5

A majority vote of those present and voting shall be sufficient to reverse the judgment of the board.

Section 6

All fines imposed must be paid within thirty (30) days of the date postmarked letter. Any member failing to do so will be subject to disciplinary action by the Executive Board, up to and including expulsion.

Section 7

Monetary fines will be left up to the discretion of the Executive Board, unless otherwise stated in the Constitution or by-laws.

Section 8

It takes two-thirds (2/3) majority of the membership present and voting to expel a member for any reasonable cause, other than non-payment of dues and obligations. They cannot be expelled without first bringing the matter to a vote, on the floor of the assembly, upon proper motion.

Section 9

The organization shall maintain a Black List of persons deemed unacceptable for membership or invitation to any organized function. An accurate record of the date and reason a member has been placed on the blacklist must be kept in the Vice-President’s book. The Black List shall be composed of persons who:

A) Have been removed by disciplinary proceedings: or

Any guest or nonmember of the organization who shall be guilty of conduct

which constitutes any misdemeanor according to the Laws of the state of

Alabama at any function of the organization.

C) The Board shall bring to the membership for their approval person’s whose

name shall be placed on the black list.

Article 11 - Rules of Order

Section 1

Robert’s Rules of Order should be the order of the society when matters are not covered by the constitution and by-laws.

***This matter is going to our floor for a vote. As these rules are being read...our Board did not feel it was necessary to utilize the "Investigating Committee". The infraction was not witnessed by any of the "women" of the group (that compromise the Investigating committ), but was witnessed by a room full of the "men" members (as they have seperate meetings from the "women").There is really nothing to investigate as this "Man" member has admitted he did this (to numerous people, including Board Members). Sadly, the problem does not stop there...the accused has gone even further to say "If the organization follows through with this vote, I WILL go to jail, as he will hurt someone". Maybe I am reading too much into that, but that sounds pretty threatening to me!

I know By-Laws are up to "Interpretation" by the Parliamentarian. I am also aware that the President has the right to over rule the Parliamentarian. The Board has made the recommendation to bring this matter straight to the floor for the membership to vote on...as per Article 10 Section 9; C)The Board shall bring to the membership for their approval person’s whose

name shall be placed on the black list.

We need some guidance, as we only want to do what is right by the organization and keeping our members safe, all the while maintaing the integrity of the By-Laws. I am sorry to be so lengthy in this, but I felt you needed as much info as possible to hopefully assist in this matter.

This problem covers a lot of territory. Is there any specific place we can refer to in RONR for the resolution of this problem?

Thank you in advance for your time & knowledge in this matter.

[J. J.]

Well, first of all, we don't do bylaws here.

Second, under RONR, expulsion is a penalty inflicted as a result of discipline (pp. 624-5).

Third, "blackballing" someone generally refers to approving someone's application for membership (p. 398, fn.), and is not applicable to someone already a member.

[hmtcastle]

"blackballing" someone generally refers to approving someone's application for membership

I always thought it referred to disapproving someone's application for membership.

[Guest Louise]

Well, first of all, we don't do bylaws here.

Second, under RONR, expulsion is a penalty inflicted as a result of discipline (pp. 624-5).

Third, "blackballing" someone generally refers to approving someone's application for membership (p. 398, fn.), and is not applicable to someone already a member.

Yes, I agree.."Blackballing" does refer to the rejection of an applicant. However, in this instance, the group maintains a "Blackball" list that prevents those people from attending ANY & ALL future events within & related to our organization.

[Chris Harrison]

Seems to me that if the bylaws require an investigating committee that one must be used and the disciplinary proceedings must be used. The fact that no one from the "woman's" organization was there should not stop them from conducting an investigation (in fact they might be even more impartial because they weren't there to have their opinions influenced by what they saw or heard). The fact that the man confessed just would probably make it a shorter investigation. As for his threat I would suggest the police be called if you are that worried. As for the blacklist it is unclear whether the Board can just put this guy's name in front of the Membership without some sort of disciplinary proceedings as spelled out in Article 10 Section 9 (A). Whether © is indeed a separate way of putting someone on the blacklist is something you as a membership (not just the Parliamentarian as you now understand it) will need to decide. See RONR pp. 570-573 for some principles to help you all interpret those bylaws.

[Kim Goldsworthy]

I know By-Laws are up to "Interpretation" by the Parliamentarian.

Wrong.

I am also aware that the President has the right to over rule the Parliamentarian.

Wrong.

Since parliamentarians do not interpret bylaws, the president has nothing to overrule.

And, likewise, presidents do not interpret bylaws.

***

Bylaws are interpreted by the organization.

Not by any individual, like a parliamentarian or a president.

[Rob Elsman]

We are a civic organization that is comprised of women. However, we do have a "sub" group under us that is made up of 35 men. We condsider them to be a part of our Organization as the "woman" member has to be the Sponsor for the "man" to join. The women do have a "Constitution & By-Laws", whereas, the "men" have "Rules & Regulations". Whenever their rules do not adddress an issue (within their group), they are to adhere to the By-Laws of the organization. In the following context, I am removing the group's name & replacing with "women" & "men", I hope this does not cause confusion.

Our by-laws simply state:

Section 1

The "Men" shall become a permanent addition to the "women" and expulsion of its members may only be accomplished by following the "women's" disciplinary procedures in article X-Section 1 through 9, of the by-laws.

Section 2

"The men" are subject to the Constitution and By-Laws of "the women". They shall govern themselves and do so within the constraints of the by-laws of the "women". The Executive Board has the authority to enforce the by-laws and ensure necessary and proper conduct of the "Men" as a group as well as any individual "man in that group".

PROBLEM: One of the "men" became very boisterous at their mtg. The comments made were lewd (foul language & telling them exactly what they could do; I am refraining from putting his exact words on a public forum)lascivious & very disturbing to the men in that room. The Seargeant at Arms proceeded to try & stop this member from this conduct, but it continued to get worse until they just adjourned the mtg. Thus, the "SAA" of the "men", submitted a letter (certified) to the Executive Board of "the women". The letter did not request discipline or a fine. The "Men" have requested this member be expelled and/or blackballed from the organization altogether.....This is where things become a bit touchy, as our By-Laws are a bit conflicting & ambiguous.

We do have an Investigating committee included in our By-Laws of the organization (below is their description):

Section 6

The Investigating committee will consist of ten (10) active members, chosen by a random lottery drawing. The Investigating committee will be asked to investigate all allegations brought against a member for violating the constitution, by-law, and standing rules of the "women". This committee will choose a chair person. There must be 2/3 of this committee present to discuss and investigate allegations. This committee will be in charge of checking ID’s at the front door of all functions to assure no one under the age of 21 is allowed in.

Now, I will give you a list of our Disciplinary Procedures (from the "women's" by-laws):

Article 10 - Disciplinary Procedures

Section 1

The discipline of the society shall be vested in the Executive Board and subject to the provisions listed within these rules. For any disciplinary actions taken, all board members are to be notified of any and all meetings concerning any violations or disciplinary actions.

Section 2

Any member who violates the constitution, by-laws, standing rules, ball rules, parade rules or pledge of the society shall be liable to have a fine imposed and/or up to expulsion from membership if recommended by Executive Board.

Section 3

All allegations brought against a member must be done so in writing and sent by certified mail. The accused member shall be notified by certified mail of accusations. The accused member of the society has the right to request a copy of the letter of the accuser. She/He will be given every chance to defend her/himself to the Executive Board and to the membership. Any unsigned letters will be discarded and not addressed.

Section 4

Any member has the right to appeal the punishment imposed by appealing first to the board and

then to the membership. The member has ten (10) days from the postmarked letter to make an appeal to the board.

Section 5

A majority vote of those present and voting shall be sufficient to reverse the judgment of the board.

Section 6

All fines imposed must be paid within thirty (30) days of the date postmarked letter. Any member failing to do so will be subject to disciplinary action by the Executive Board, up to and including expulsion.

Section 7

Monetary fines will be left up to the discretion of the Executive Board, unless otherwise stated in the Constitution or by-laws.

Section 8

It takes two-thirds (2/3) majority of the membership present and voting to expel a member for any reasonable cause, other than non-payment of dues and obligations. They cannot be expelled without first bringing the matter to a vote, on the floor of the assembly, upon proper motion.

Section 9

The organization shall maintain a Black List of persons deemed unacceptable for membership or invitation to any organized function. An accurate record of the date and reason a member has been placed on the blacklist must be kept in the Vice-President’s book. The Black List shall be composed of persons who:

A) Have been removed by disciplinary proceedings: or

Any guest or nonmember of the organization who shall be guilty of conduct

which constitutes any misdemeanor according to the Laws of the state of

Alabama at any function of the organization.

C) The Board shall bring to the membership for their approval person’s whose

name shall be placed on the black list.

Article 11 - Rules of Order

Section 1

Robert’s Rules of Order should be the order of the society when matters are not covered by the constitution and by-laws.

***This matter is going to our floor for a vote. As these rules are being read...our Board did not feel it was necessary to utilize the "Investigating Committee". The infraction was not witnessed by any of the "women" of the group (that compromise the Investigating committ), but was witnessed by a room full of the "men" members (as they have seperate meetings from the "women").There is really nothing to investigate as this "Man" member has admitted he did this (to numerous people, including Board Members). Sadly, the problem does not stop there...the accused has gone even further to say "If the organization follows through with this vote, I WILL go to jail, as he will hurt someone". Maybe I am reading too much into that, but that sounds pretty threatening to me!

I know By-Laws are up to "Interpretation" by the Parliamentarian. I am also aware that the President has the right to over rule the Parliamentarian. The Board has made the recommendation to bring this matter straight to the floor for the membership to vote on...as per Article 10 Section 9; C)The Board shall bring to the membership for their approval person’s whose

name shall be placed on the black list.

We need some guidance, as we only want to do what is right by the organization and keeping our members safe, all the while maintaing the integrity of the By-Laws. I am sorry to be so lengthy in this, but I felt you needed as much info as possible to hopefully assist in this matter.

This problem covers a lot of territory. Is there any specific place we can refer to in RONR for the resolution of this problem?

Thank you in advance for your time & knowledge in this matter.

You lost me at "sub" group of "men" (ugh!). I suggest you obtain the services of a professional parliamentarian with whom you can sit down face to face and go over all the relevant facts and applicable rules to find the correct answers to your questions.

[Dan Honemann]

"Since parliamentarians do not interpret bylaws ..."

Well, yes they do. The real problem is that, in too many instances, they attempt to do it here when they haven't read them and know next to nothing about the organization involved.

But we've learned to grin (like this) and bear it.

[Gary Novosielski]

Since parliamentarians do not interpret bylaws, the president has nothing to overrule.

Well, they do interpret them, tentatively, they just don't rule on them. So it's true there is nothing to overrule.

And, likewise, presidents do not interpret bylaws.

Well, yeah, they do. And they even rule on them, and may defend [their interpretations] strongly when challenged--but subject to appeal.

I think it's fair to say that the assembly has the final word on interpretation, but they're not the only ones with an opinion or a voice in the conversation.

[Guest Louise]

Thank you all for your input!!!

Gary...what you stated is also my take on the situation.

All of the replies were helpful in one way or another.

[Josh Martin]

We need some guidance, as we only want to do what is right by the organization and keeping our members safe, all the while maintaing the integrity of the By-Laws. I am sorry to be so lengthy in this, but I felt you needed as much info as possible to hopefully assist in this matter.

This problem covers a lot of territory. Is there any specific place we can refer to in RONR for the resolution of this problem?

Since you have a customized disciplinary procedure in your Bylaws, there's not much in RONR which will be helpful, except the Principles of Interpretation in RONR, 10th ed., pgs. 570-573. As you have reason to believe the member may become hostile or even violent, RONR notes that it may be advisable to arrange for the presence of police or guards from a security service agency. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 629, lines 26-29)

Third, "blackballing" someone generally refers to approving someone's application for membership (p. 398, fn.), and is not applicable to someone already a member.

The term "blackball" has multiple meanings. The one used here seems to be "to exclude socially, ostracize."

[George Mervosh]

I always thought it referred to disapproving someone's application for membership.

You don't think it refers to the approval process, or are you just looking to twist J.J.'s reply?

[Gary Novosielski]

Blackball, like most words, changes in its subtler connotations of meaning with time. Loosely, it means ostracize or boycott, but its most specific use refers to its origins--the use of black and white balls as balloting devices.

American Heritage does a good job of defining it:

n.

• A negative vote, especially one that blocks the admission of an applicant to an organization.
• A small black ball used as a negative ballot.

tr.v.

, -balled, -ball·ing, -balls.

• To vote against, especially to veto the admission of.
• To shut out from social or commercial participation; ostracize or boycott.

As an antonym, it lists: admit

In common usage I think blackball is used more in the sense of a single event--a veto of admission, with the presumption being that a single vote in the negative would be enough to defeat the motion. Continuing exclusion of someone, especially over an extended time span, is more likely to be referred to, in noun and verb form, as blacklist. But of course that carries the connotation of being one of many so excluded.

[hmtcastle]

You don't think it refers to the approval process, or are you just looking to twist J.J.'s reply?

I was looking to correct J.J.'s reply. He did not say it refers to the approval process (not that it does), he said it refers to approving an application, which it clearly does not. Ask anyone who's been blackballed.