Ray Posted October 31, 2017 at 08:53 PM Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 at 08:53 PM If a workshop "meeting" (defined as a gathering where no binding votes can be taken) and nothing in the bylaws give guidance do Roberts rules still apply? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted October 31, 2017 at 09:23 PM Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 at 09:23 PM Generally, the rules in RONR apply to meetings. Usually at bona fide meetings, votes can take place. I'm afraid we need more information on these "meetings" you describe. Just exactly what is said in the bylaws about these "workshop meetings" and how are they scheduled? How are they different from a bunch of your members meeting for drinks in a bar to talk about the organization? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. J. Posted October 31, 2017 at 09:24 PM Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 at 09:24 PM 28 minutes ago, Ray said: If a workshop "meeting" (defined as a gathering where no binding votes can be taken) and nothing in the bylaws give guidance do Roberts rules still apply? It depends on what this "workshop" is. If this is a formal meeting of the assembly, and defined in the bylaws as such, yes. If this a group of members getting together, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Who's Coming to Dinner Posted October 31, 2017 at 09:43 PM Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 at 09:43 PM 47 minutes ago, Ray said: If a workshop "meeting" (defined as a gathering where no binding votes can be taken) and nothing in the bylaws give guidance do Roberts rules still apply? Robert's Rules help to get things done. If you aren't doing anything binding, then what is the point of using them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted November 1, 2017 at 03:35 AM Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 at 03:35 AM (edited) By way of clarification... We are a HOA located in NJ, and In the past these meetings were the equivalent of executive session meetings not open to the public and attended by only the seven directors. The workshops are scheduled at regular intervals and are held in the HOA board room and not open to the homeowners. Over the summer, effective October 1st, the state passed a law relating to HOA's in general, declaring a variety of things, among them, is a definition that all "meetings" be open to the public, and a requirement that binding votes must be taken in open meetings. (at the least this is the interpretation we are working from) This past September the homeowners elected a new President and Vice President (me). The new president has taken the position that what used to be called closed executive meetings are now workshops and no binding votes can be taken in a workshop. This is his way to get around the open to the public requirement, he further feels that roberts rules apply to the workshop, I disagree, and feel that if it is a non voting workshop we don't need to follow roberts rules. Our ByLaws offer no help, guidance or definition here. Edited November 1, 2017 at 04:24 AM by Ray additional info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hieu H. Huynh Posted November 1, 2017 at 09:20 AM Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 at 09:20 AM What would you do in a regular meeting that you wouldn't do in your "workshop"? Perhaps you could use the less formal rules for small boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted November 1, 2017 at 10:40 AM Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 at 10:40 AM 6 hours ago, Ray said: By way of clarification... We are a HOA located in NJ, and In the past these meetings were the equivalent of executive session meetings not open to the public and attended by only the seven directors. The workshops are scheduled at regular intervals and are held in the HOA board room and not open to the homeowners. Over the summer, effective October 1st, the state passed a law relating to HOA's in general, declaring a variety of things, among them, is a definition that all "meetings" be open to the public, and a requirement that binding votes must be taken in open meetings. (at the least this is the interpretation we are working from) This past September the homeowners elected a new President and Vice President (me). The new president has taken the position that what used to be called closed executive meetings are now workshops and no binding votes can be taken in a workshop. This is his way to get around the open to the public requirement, he further feels that roberts rules apply to the workshop, I disagree, and feel that if it is a non voting workshop we don't need to follow roberts rules. Our ByLaws offer no help, guidance or definition here. You will need to look to your association's governing documents for the answer to your question as to whether or not the rules in Robert's Rules of Order are to govern the proceedings in these "workshop" meetings of your board. If your bylaws are ambiguous in this regard, I suppose your board will have to decide the question for itself, since I doubt that either you or your President are granted that authority. But let me ask you this. If you are right and your board does not need to follow the rules in Robert's Rules of Order during these meetings, are there to be no rules? Anarchy is seldom a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted November 1, 2017 at 10:54 AM Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 at 10:54 AM 10 minutes ago, Daniel H. Honemann said: But let me ask you this. If you are right and your board does not need to follow the rules in Robert's Rules of Order during these meetings, are there to be no rules? Anarchy is seldom a good thing. The way it will work is that the president will try to enforce the rules, and then the vice-president will raise a point of order that no points of order are to be entertained. The chair will rule the point of order not well taken, and continue running the meeting as he sees fit, i.e., according to the rules. If this ruling is overturned on appeal, then the president will continue running the meeting as he sees fit, i.e., according to the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millyferry Posted November 1, 2017 at 11:11 AM Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 at 11:11 AM Nice explained through robertsrules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintCad Posted November 1, 2017 at 03:28 PM Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 at 03:28 PM (edited) Maybe the meeting is run without rules since everyone sits around and talks about their feelings. I was parliamentarian on a school council that was run this way. The Chair felt rules got in the way of people talking. They didn't want bylaws because those are rules. Sure there were a lot of warm and fuzzies going around but nothing was ever accomplished other than wasting 2 hours a month. Edited November 1, 2017 at 03:29 PM by SaintCad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Who's Coming to Dinner Posted November 1, 2017 at 03:43 PM Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 at 03:43 PM 12 hours ago, Ray said: The new president has taken the position that what used to be called closed executive meetings are now workshops and no binding votes can be taken in a workshop. Fine. So these are not official meetings of the board, because if they were, they'd be open to the public. Therefore, you are just a group of people sitting around shooting the breeze. That's not a deliberative assembly and there is no need for rules of order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted November 1, 2017 at 03:50 PM Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 at 03:50 PM 2 minutes ago, Guest Who's Coming to Dinner said: Fine. So these are not official meetings of the board, because if they were, they'd be open to the public. Therefore, you are just a group of people sitting around shooting the breeze. That's not a deliberative assembly and there is no need for rules of order. Well, I'm not so sure about all this, since I suspect that much depends upon NJ law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted November 1, 2017 at 03:58 PM Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 at 03:58 PM 18 hours ago, J. J. said: It depends on what this "workshop" is. If this is a formal meeting of the assembly, and defined in the bylaws as such, yes. 9 minutes ago, Guest Who's Coming to Dinner said: Fine. So these are not official meetings of the board, because if they were, they'd be open to the public. Therefore, you are just a group of people sitting around shooting the breeze. That's not a deliberative assembly and there is no need for rules of order. 2 minutes ago, Daniel H. Honemann said: Well, I'm not so sure about all this, since I suspect that much depends upon NJ law. I think J. J. is right, and also that Ray should sit down with the president and an HOA lawyer to read the bylaws and applicable provisions of the law. A little Googling shows that the language in question may be "all meetings of the executive board, except conference or working sessions at which no binding votes are to be taken". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted November 1, 2017 at 04:04 PM Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 at 04:04 PM 10 minutes ago, Daniel H. Honemann said: Well, I'm not so sure about all this, since I suspect that much depends upon NJ law. I'm not sure how much the NJ Open Public Meetings Act ("sunshine") applies here, but trying to get around the fact that meetings have to be public by changing the name from "meeting" to "workshop" is unlikely to fly. Even a quorum of directors accidentally catching the same bus can get you in trouble in NJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted November 1, 2017 at 04:29 PM Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 at 04:29 PM I'm glad we have all these experts on NJ law here on the forum to advise us concerning these questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted November 1, 2017 at 04:35 PM Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 at 04:35 PM 6 minutes ago, Daniel H. Honemann said: I'm glad we have all these experts on NJ law here on the forum to advise us concerning these questions. You're welcome. I posted what I did because I am confident enough that it's not more wrong than what anyone else posted so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted November 2, 2017 at 07:11 AM Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 at 07:11 AM 14 hours ago, Shmuel Gerber said: You're welcome. I posted what I did because I am confident enough that it's not more wrong than what anyone else posted so far. Actually, one of the nice things about New Jersey law is that such confidence is rarely misplaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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