substitute motions

[Guest Dirk B]

What is a "substitute" and can it be used to supersede a main motion that has been seconded and awaiting a vote? 
In other words a council member submits a motion to revisit a portion of a previously passed Condition Use Permit, it gets a second. then another council member offers a Substitute motion to deny revisiting the Conditional Use Permit. Would the substitute motion take precedence over the original motion?  Is Substitute Motion the same as a Subsidiary? 

[Hieu H. Huynh]

Generally a "substitute" is a form of amendment. It would not be appropriate to have a substitute to not do the main motion.

[J. J.]

7 hours ago, Guest Dirk B said:

What is a "substitute" and can it be used to supersede a main motion that has been seconded and awaiting a vote? 
In other words a council member submits a motion to revisit a portion of a previously passed Condition Use Permit, it gets a second. then another council member offers a Substitute motion to deny revisiting the Conditional Use Permit. Would the substitute motion take precedence over the original motion?  Is Substitute Motion the same as a Subsidiary? 

  A motion "to deny" does not exist in RONR, though it is used in some governmental bodies (and creates a whole bunch of procedural problems).

It would be possible to Amend Something Previously Adopted (ASPA), which would be the "revisiting" part.  It would be possible to move to Postpone Indefinitely the ASPA. 

[Josh Martin]

11 hours ago, Guest Dirk B said:

What is a "substitute" and can it be used to supersede a main motion that has been seconded and awaiting a vote? 
In other words a council member submits a motion to revisit a portion of a previously passed Condition Use Permit, it gets a second. then another council member offers a Substitute motion to deny revisiting the Conditional Use Permit. Would the substitute motion take precedence over the original motion?  Is Substitute Motion the same as a Subsidiary? 

A substitute is a form of the motion to Amend - specifically, one which seeks to replace an entire paragraph, section, article, or the entire motion with new language. Such a motion takes precedence over the main motion. The motion to substitute is considered first. After the motion to substitute is considered, the main motion (either as originally made or as now amended, depending on whether the substitute is adopted) is then considered.

A subsidiary motion is a broader category of motions, which includes, but is not limited to, a motion to substitute. A subsidiary motion is one which assists the assembly in handling a main motion (and sometimes other motions). This category includes the motion to Amend (which a motion to substitute is a form of), but it includes other motions as well. A motion to postpone, for instance, is a subsidiary motion.

As to this particular substitute, I concur with Mr. Huynh that it would generally not be in order. An amendment which would have the same effect as simply defeating the main motion is not in order. I am aware, however, that a motion to deny often is required in some government bodies (such as zoning boards).

[Guest Dirk B.]

Thank you to all who have responded.  Your input is greatly appreciated. And has been very helpful.  

[George Mervosh]

On 6/20/2018 at 2:09 PM, Josh Martin said:

A substitute is a form of the motion to Amend - specifically, one which seeks to replace an entire paragraph, section, article, or the entire motion with new language. Such a motion takes precedence over the main motion. The motion to substitute is considered first. After the motion to substitute is considered, the main motion (either as originally made or as now amended, depending on whether the substitute is adopted) is then considered.

That is the cleanest general explanation of a substitute I've read.  I'll be stealing it.