Motion vs recommendation and chair, parlimentarian

[Angie N]

Hi,

I am seeking some guidance on a few things.

A committee chair made a "recommendation" to the body.  The chair of the meeting ended up asking for a vote and it passed. I thought it had to be presesented as a motion in order to vote.  Does the recommendation count as the motion? How is this recorded in the minutes? 

Also should the chair be given a voting card? I thought the chair was supposed to be impartial. However the chair says she has the same rights as members including voting while presiding. 

Does the parlimentarian have to collect motion forms and count the votes?

Thank you! 

 

[Rob Elsman]

The chair of the "body" acted properly in assuming the motion to adopt the recommendation of the committee.

The chair of the assembly refrains from voting except when her vote would affect the result.

Ordinarily, the parliamentarian does not collect and count the ballots.

 

[Atul Kapur]

2 hours ago, Angie N said:

I thought it had to be presesented as a motion in order to vote.  Does the recommendation count as the motion? How is this recorded in the minutes? 

It is recommended in order to avoid confusion.

"In any report of a subordinate board or a committee ... specific recommendations for immediate action by the parent assembly should be grouped at the end—repeating them if they have already been noted at separate places in the report—and should generally be cast in the form of one or more proposed resolutions. Although it is possible for a report, in the circumstances just described, to present recommendations which are not in the form of resolutions or motions, the “adoption” of such recommendations by the parent assembly may, depending on their wording or that of the motion to adopt, lead to confusion as to whether their adoption authorizes action, or only has the force of a declaration of intent (requiring the adoption of subsequent resolutions for implementation). A board or committee is usually best fitted to prepare resolutions to carry out its recommendations, and it should never leave this responsibility to others."
(RONR 11th ed., p. 504, lines 16-32. Emphasis added)

The chair may have assumed that the recommendation was clear enough that everyone knew what they were voting on. If the secretary (or any other member) was not certain, then they should have insisted that the motion be stated clearly.

2 hours ago, Angie N said:

I thought the chair was supposed to be impartial. However the chair says she has the same rights as members including voting while presiding. 

Depends on the size of the body that is meeting.

"If the presiding officer is a member of the assembly or voting body, he has the same voting right as any other member. Except in a small board or a committee, however— unless the vote is secret (that is, unless it is by ballot;) the chair protects his impartial position by exercising his voting right only when his vote would affect the outcome," (p. 53, lines 16-21)

"Small board" is defined as "In a board meeting where there are not more than about a dozen members present" (p. 487)

2 hours ago, Angie N said:

Does the parlimentarian have to collect motion forms and count the votes?

That is something to be decided between the chair and the parliamentarian. They are not listed in RONR among the duties of the parliamentarian.

Edited to add: The rules for small boards and committees (p. 487-8) cover a few of the things you described:

"some of the formality that is necessary in a large assembly would hinder business. The rules governing such meetings are different from the rules that hold in other assemblies
...
"- When a proposal is perfectly clear to all present, a vote can be taken without a motion’s having been introduced.
...
"If the chairman is a member, he may, without leaving the
chair, speak in informal discussions and in debate, and vote on all questions."

Edited September 15, 2019 at 09:32 PM by Atul Kapur

[Angie N]

26 minutes ago, Atul Kapur said:

It is recommended in order to avoid confusion.

"In any report of a subordinate board or a committee ... specific recommendations for immediate action by the parent assembly should be grouped at the end—repeating them if they have already been noted at separate places in the report—and should generally be cast in the form of one or more proposed resolutions. Although it is possible for a report, in the circumstances just described, to present recommendations which are not in the form of resolutions or motions, the “adoption” of such recommendations by the parent assembly may, depending on their wording or that of the motion to adopt, lead to confusion as to whether their adoption authorizes action, or only has the force of a declaration of intent (requiring the adoption of subsequent resolutions for implementation). A board or committee is usually best fitted to prepare resolutions to carry out its recommendations, and it should never leave this responsibility to others."
(RONR 11th ed., p. 504, lines 16-32. Emphasis added)

The chair may have assumed that the recommendation was clear enough that everyone knew what they were voting on. If the secretary (or any other member) was not certain, then they should have insisted that the motion be stated clearly.

Depends on the size of the body that is meeting.

"If the presiding officer is a member of the assembly or voting body, he has the same voting right as any other member. Except in a small board or a committee, however— unless the vote is secret (that is, unless it is by ballot;) the chair protects his impartial position by exercising his voting right only when his vote would affect the outcome," (p. 53, lines 16-21)

"Small board" is defined as "In a board meeting where there are not more than about a dozen members present" (p. 487)

That is something to be decided between the chair and the parliamentarian. They are not listed in RONR among the duties of the parliamentarian.

Edited to add: The rules for small boards and committees (p. 487-8) cover a few of the things you described:

"some of the formality that is necessary in a large assembly would hinder business. The rules governing such meetings are different from the rules that hold in other assemblies
...
"- When a proposal is perfectly clear to all present, a vote can be taken without a motion’s having been introduced.
...
"If the chairman is a member, he may, without leaving the
chair, speak in informal discussions and in debate, and vote on all questions."

Thank you Atul!

I have a few follow up questions. My confusion is the chair of the committee said he didn't make a motion just a recommendation so he did not want to complete the motion form.  So is it still recorded in minutes that he made the motion? How do I record in the minutes? 

 

Also this is not a small board, it is more than 12. So does the chair still has the right to vote in the meeting when it is not secret ballot or their vote is not affecting the outcome?

Thank you! 

[Guest Zev]

1 hour ago, Angie N said:

My confusion is the chair of the committee said he didn't make a motion just a recommendation so he did not want to complete the motion form.

I have no idea what a "motion form" is. There is no such thing in RONR-land.

1 hour ago, Angie N said:

So is it still recorded in minutes that he made the motion? How do I record in the minutes? 

No, he did not make any motion. It was the committee that made a recommendation that was then voted as-if it was a motion. The chairman of the committee just happens to be making the presentation of the recommendation in the name of the committee. Even if the committee had been only one person then the recommendation would still be recorded as having been made by the committee and not the person.

1 hour ago, Angie N said:

Also this is not a small board, it is more than 12. So does the chair still has the right to vote in the meeting when it is not secret ballot or their vote is not affecting the outcome?

As Dr. Kapur has indicated...

1 hour ago, Atul Kapur said:

If the presiding officer is a member of the assembly or voting body, he has the same voting right as any other member.

...quoting our book on page 53.

[Bruce Lages]

1 hour ago, Angie N said:

Also this is not a small board, it is more than 12. So does the chair still has the right to vote in the meeting when it is not secret ballot or their vote is not affecting the outcome?

Thank you! 

I think that depends on how many more than 12 members your board has. RONR stipulates that small board rules can be applied when "boards are usually to be understood as consisting of not more than about a dozen persons." (p. 9, l.35 - p. 10, l.1). If your board has a few more than 12, the small board rules may work fine, whereas if you have many more members they probably won't work well. The 12 members figure should not be seen as an absolute limit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Atul Kapur]

1 hour ago, Angie N said:

My confusion is the chair of the committee said he didn't make a motion just a recommendation so he did not want to complete the motion form.  So is it still recorded in minutes that he made the motion? How do I record in the minutes? 

"The committee recommended that [take the language from the report, which should be written] . The  recommendation was adopted."

You can show him the passage quoted above and suggest that he should at least phrase the recommendation in the form of a motion. If he doesn't want to do that because he disagrees with the committee's recommendation, then another member of the committee should move it.

1 hour ago, Angie N said:

So does the chair still has the right to vote in the meeting when it is not secret ballot or their vote is not affecting the outcome?

Yes, but the Chair is giving up their position of impartiality, which is not advisable. Again, your can show them the passage quoted above.

[Joshua Katz]

2 hours ago, Angie N said:

I have a few follow up questions. My confusion is the chair of the committee said he didn't make a motion just a recommendation so he did not want to complete the motion form.  So is it still recorded in minutes that he made the motion? How do I record in the minutes? 

 

I'm not clear what this means. A committee, as you say here, makes recommendations. If it wants those recommendations to actually guide actions, it needs to make them in the form of a motion. If the committee doesn't want to make such a motion, it's not clear to me that it is recommending anything, since by definition a recommendation is something you think should be done. I think the problem here may be a misunderstanding on the part of the committee chair as to how committee recommendations are advanced in a deliberative assembly.

[Angie N]

54 minutes ago, Joshua Katz said:

I'm not clear what this means. A committee, as you say here, makes recommendations. If it wants those recommendations to actually guide actions, it needs to make them in the form of a motion. If the committee doesn't want to make such a motion, it's not clear to me that it is recommending anything, since by definition a recommendation is something you think should be done. I think the problem here may be a misunderstanding on the part of the committee chair as to how committee recommendations are advanced in a deliberative assembly.

I believe there was some misunderstanding on voting on a recommendation vs a motion. To try to provide some clarification, the committee chair was making a recommendation however I believe he also thought that a member of the body had to make a motion in order to vote. There was no motion made however the chair of the body put the recommendation to a vote. After the meeting, it was questioned if that was in order.

[Angie N]

1 hour ago, Atul Kapur said:

"The committee recommended that [take the language from the report, which should be written] . The  recommendation was adopted."

You can show him the passage quoted above and suggest that he should at least phrase the recommendation in the form of a motion. If he doesn't want to do that because he disagrees with the committee's recommendation, then another member of the committee should move it.

Yes, but the Chair is giving up their position of impartiality, which is not advisable. Again, your can show them the passage quoted above.

Thank you! This is helpful. 

[Angie N]

1 hour ago, Bruce Lages said:

I think that depends on how many more than 12 members your board has. RONR stipulates that small board rules can be applied when "boards are usually to be understood as consisting of not more than about a dozen persons." (p. 9, l.35 - p. 10, l.1). If your board has a few more than 12, the small board rules may work fine, whereas if you have many more members they probably won't work well. The 12 members figure should not be seen as an absolute limit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry I did not mean the board. The membership is about 35-40 members. The chair votes by show of hands in the meetings. 

Mr. Kapur helped address this. 

[Joshua Katz]

7 minutes ago, Angie N said:

. To try to provide some clarification, the committee chair was making a recommendation however I believe he also thought that a member of the body had to make a motion in order to vote.

Is the committee chair not a member of the body that was meeting?

 

8 minutes ago, Angie N said:

After the meeting, it was questioned if that was in order.

In any event, I think we can say definitively that any point of order would have needed to be raised at the time.

[Angie N]

14 minutes ago, Joshua Katz said:

Is the committee chair not a member of the body that was meeting?

 

In any event, I think we can say definitively that any point of order would have needed to be raised at the time.

Yes they are.  The bottom line is the committee chair did not expect a vote from his recommendation because he did not say " I move". Thank you! 

[Rob Elsman]

Check the index in RONR for the subject, "Assumed Motions". There are several pages that talk about the chair assuming the necessary motion after the reporting member has reported recommendations of a committee.

From what the original poster has said, I think it might have been better for the assembly's presiding officer to call on the reporting member to make the proper motion, since the assembly seems unaccustomed to the use of an assumed motion; however, it does seem to me that the assumption of the motion was not improper.

[Atul Kapur]

10 hours ago, Angie N said:

The bottom line is the committee chair did not expect a vote from his recommendation because he did not say " I move".

What did the committee chair think would happen with the recommendation? I think he is getting confused over wording. For anything to happen with the recommendation, the membership meeting has to take some action on it. The meeting takes action by voting on motions. Whether it's called a recommendation or a motion, the same process has to be followed, otherwise nothing progresses. I've excerpted pages 506-7 below and recommend that your committee chair read that entire section.

"Immediately after receiving a board’s or a committee’s report—unless it is a report containing only information on which no action is taken (p. 525)—an assembly normally considers whatever action may be recommended in or arise out of the report. In the remaining pages of this section, it is explained how such action under various conditions may involve the introduction of motions—to implement recommendations or, occasionally, to adopt the entire report.

Motions to Implement Recommendations. When a report
contains recommendations...the reporting board or committee member usually makes the necessary motion to implement the recommendations at the conclusion of his presentation, provided he is a member of the assembly (see examples, pp. 514-16 and 519ff., in which it is generally assumed that the “reporting member” is a member of the assembly). ... .
No second is required in these cases, since the motion is made
on behalf of the board or committee (see p. 36, ll. 15-23).
If the person presenting the report ... does not make the required motion to implement the recommendations as just described, any member of the assembly can do so; but the motion should then be seconded. Or, when the proper motion is a matter of clear-cut procedure and must necessarily be introduced to resolve the case, the chair may sometimes expedite matters by assuming the motion—that is, stating the question on it without waiting for it to be made—provided that the assembly is accustomed to this method.*" (emphasis in original)

[Guest Zev]

20 hours ago, Angie N said:

After the meeting, it was questioned if that was in order.

Did anyone else feel a "disturbance in the force" (to borrow a quote from Lord Vader) given this comment?

[Gary Novosielski]

On 9/15/2019 at 2:57 PM, Angie N said:

Hi,

I am seeking some guidance on a few things.

A committee chair made a "recommendation" to the body.  The chair of the meeting ended up asking for a vote and it passed. I thought it had to be presesented as a motion in order to vote.  Does the recommendation count as the motion? How is this recorded in the minutes? 

Also should the chair be given a voting card? I thought the chair was supposed to be impartial. However the chair says she has the same rights as members including voting while presiding. 

Does the parlimentarian have to collect motion forms and count the votes?

Thank you! 

 

If a committee is reporting recommendations that would require a motion to implement, it should draft them as such, and move them at the conclusion of the report.  But the chair assumed a motion, which under the circumstances was reasonable.  No harm--no foul.

The chair should not vote and should remain impartial in assemblies larger than about a dozen members, but she does retain the same rights as other members, including the right to do inadvisable things.  But even in a large assembly, the chair can and should feel free to vote whenever her one vote would make a difference, or in any ballot vote, so there's really no penalty for doing things the way they should be done. 

Merely having a voting card does not force her to use it.  If her one vote would not affect the outcome, she loses nothing by retaining the appearance of impartiality.  Since you're talking about collecting and counting votes, that sounds like a ballot vote, so the chair can vote without any problem.

The parliamentarian normally has no duties in connection with collecting motions or counting votes.  Written resolutions are usually submitted to the secretary or the chair.  Votes are counted by tellers normally appointed by the chair.