Reading Minutes Outloud

[Quest]

I am a new secretary. Our HOA board has had a practice of distributing minutes as members enter meeting....allowing members time to read and offer corrections, then approve them. This has been done the past 5 years. Last night a new board member stated the minutes had to be read out loud according to RR's unless otherwise stated in bylaws. 

I have read the rules now and see options, like voting to waive it,  on this but my question is this...

WHY? In order to address this from a perspective other than' It's RR's'. What is the purpose, significance to reading them out loud? 

Thank you,

 

[jstackpo]

Illiterate members?   Or, more kindly, visually impaired members?

The "must read if one member requests" rule is on pp. 354 & 474.

Edited October 15, 2019 at 12:06 PM by jstackpo

[Josh Martin]

2 hours ago, Quest said:

I am a new secretary. Our HOA board has had a practice of distributing minutes as members enter meeting....allowing members time to read and offer corrections, then approve them. This has been done the past 5 years. Last night a new board member stated the minutes had to be read out loud according to RR's unless otherwise stated in bylaws. 

I have read the rules now and see options, like voting to waive it,  on this but my question is this...

WHY? In order to address this from a perspective other than' It's RR's'. What is the purpose, significance to reading them out loud? 

Well, for starters, the board member was incorrect that the minutes must always be read. When minutes have been distributed in advance, they need not be read, unless demanded by a member. A member still has the right to make such a demand because it is the right of every member that any paper placed before the assembly for action be read at least once. When the minutes have not been distributed in advance, then they must be read so people know what’s in them.

“A draft of the minutes of the preceding meeting can be sent to all members in advance, usually with the notice. In such a case, it is presumed that the members have used this opportunity to review them, and they are not read unless this is requested by any member. Correction of them and approval, however, is handled in the usual way. It must be understood in such a case that the formal copy placed in the minute book contains all corrections that were made and that none of the many copies circulated to members and marked by them is authoritative (see also p. 355).” (RONR, 11th ed., pg. 474)

It is not entirely clear to me whether passing out the minutes at the meeting itself is sufficiently far in advance to satisfy this rule. I suppose the members will be the ultimate judge of whether they have had sufficient time to review the minutes.

[Quest]

Thank you all for responding. Revisiting...Josh, just to be clear...we are talking about 2 different things....required to read out loud at a meeting AND required to read and corrected before approval.

So I gather if the minutes have been distributed AND adequate time allowed for reading them has been allocated a member must REQUEST an out loud reading. I understand reading is required.....but gather reading out loud at each board meeting is NOT required...it is only accommodated upon request...is that correct?

 

Edited October 17, 2019 at 02:52 PM by Quest

[Gary Novosielski]

4 hours ago, Quest said:

Thank you all for responding. Revisiting...Josh, just to be clear...we are talking about 2 different things....required to read out loud at a meeting AND required to read and corrected before approval.

So I gather if the minutes have been distributed AND adequate time allowed for reading them has been allocated a member must REQUEST an out loud reading. I understand reading is required.....but gather reading out loud at each board meeting is NOT required...it is only accommodated upon request...is that correct?

 

Ah, I see the problem in the interpretation of the word reading.  In the context of RONR's use of the term, Reading and Approval of Minutes means reading aloud.  Reading may be waived if the draft minutes were distributed in advance.  How long in advance would be a reasonable time is up to the assembly.  But on the demand of a single member the draft minutes must be read (aloud).

While the members would presumably familiarize themselves with the contents of the draft minutes, that is not what RONR means by reading.

Edited October 17, 2019 at 05:52 PM by Gary Novosielski

[Josh Martin]

6 hours ago, Quest said:

So I gather if the minutes have been distributed AND adequate time allowed for reading them has been allocated a member must REQUEST an out loud reading. I understand reading is required.....but gather reading out loud at each board meeting is NOT required...it is only accommodated upon request...is that correct?

Yes, this is correct.

[Quest]

This site is immensely valuable! Thank you so much!

[Guest SAG]

I recently went to a meeting and someone brought up a motion to waive the reading of the previous meetings minutes.  I wanted them to be read but I was outvoted.  Our Board does not put the minutes online for members to view and they do not place them in a book to view at the office.  You have to make an appointment to go view the minutes in the office and they will then print the minutes and watch you view them.  There is no signature that these minutes were accurate or approved.  The President will not allow any copies, pictures or videos of the meetings minutes that you can only view in the office to leave the office.  Is this legal? Voting not to read the minutes?

[Rob Elsman]

As the draft has apparently not been distributed to the members of the board before the meeting, each individual member has the right to order them read before being asked to approve them.  There is no motion, second, or vote.  A single member just demands that they be read, and the chair is obliged to order the secretary to read them.

Thereafter, the approved minutes should be included in the minute book maintained by the secretary of the board.  This book must be made reasonably available to members of the board for inspection, but there is no rule that requires the secretary to make paper copies or photocopies, nor is there a rule that confers the right upon a single member to make copies or photocopies of material from the minute book.

[Gary Novosielski]

No, it's not proper.  The (draft)  minutes should be read automatically if they have not been distributed in writing to the members.  The item of business is, after all, called Reading and Approval of Minutes.  

And even if the draft has been distributed, the minutes must be read aloud on the demand of a single member.  No voting involved.  The chair needs to brush up on proper procedure.

41:9 1. Reading and Approval of Minutes. The chair says, “The Secretary will read the minutes.” However, in organizations where copies of the minutes of each previous meeting as prepared by the secretary are sent to all members in advance, the chair announces that this has been done, and the actual reading of them aloud is omitted unless any member then requests that they be read. (For “dispensing” with the reading of the minutes—that is, not reading them for approval at the regular time—see 48:11.) If for any reason there are minutes of other meetings in addition to the last meeting that have not been read previously, they are each read and approved first, in order of date from earliest to latest. In all but the smallest meetings, the secretary stands while reading the minutes.

Edited June 19, 2024 at 01:25 AM by Gary Novosielski

[Joshua Katz]

The motion to dispense with the reading of the minutes, mentioned above, delays the reading, it does not eliminate it. So you can't avoid it that way, either.

[Guest SAG]

I live in NY and I am not even sure who approves the minutes or when they are approved.  We have not had a VP, Treasurer or Recording Secretary in years.  We have 7 members of a Board (which I am not a part of) and the Chairman of the Board called the motion for a vote for waiving of the reading of the minutes.   He never said anything about them being approved.  After they took the vote to waive the reading I again stated I would like the minutes read and I was told I am outvoted.  For arguments sake, if the Board or the President approved the minutes in their own meeting prior to the general membership meeting do they have to still read the minutes if only 1 person (myself) requests it? 

[Richard Brown]

Guest SAG, are you referring to the minutes of general membership meetings or the minutes of board meetings?   Also, if you are referring to board minutes, do I understand correctly that you are not a board member?

If you are referring to minutes of board meetings and you are not a member of the board, does the organization have a rule that grants non-board members access to board minutes, such as having them posted, distributed, read at general membership meetings, or even just made available to the membership?

I am asking because if the rules in RONR are controlling, non-board members do not have a right to minutes of board meetings unless the board or the membership votes to make them available.

Edited June 20, 2024 at 04:38 PM by Richard Brown
Added last two paragraphs

[Richard Brown]

On 6/20/2024 at 11:03 AM, Guest SAG said:

I live in NY and I am not even sure who approves the minutes or when they are approved.

If the rules in RONR are controlling, each body approves its own meeting minutes. The board approves the minutes of board meetings, the executive committee (if there is one) approves the minutes of executive committee meetings, and the general membership (or a committee appointed to do so) approves the minutes of general membership meetings.

Does your organization have any rules (bylaws, standing rules, special rules of order) regarding the approval of minutes?

Edited June 20, 2024 at 05:42 PM by Richard Brown
Typographical corrections

[Gary Novosielski]

On 6/20/2024 at 12:03 PM, Guest SAG said:

I live in NY and I am not even sure who approves the minutes or when they are approved.  We have not had a VP, Treasurer or Recording Secretary in years.  We have 7 members of a Board (which I am not a part of) and the Chairman of the Board called the motion for a vote for waiving of the reading of the minutes.   He never said anything about them being approved.  After they took the vote to waive the reading I again stated I would like the minutes read and I was told I am outvoted.  For arguments sake, if the Board or the President approved the minutes in their own meeting prior to the general membership meeting do they have to still read the minutes if only 1 person (myself) requests it? 

To be clear, the rule that the minutes must be read on the demand of a single member refers to a member of the body that is meeting.  If you are not a member of the board, then the rules in RONR give you no right even to attend, let alone speak or vote at a board meeting.

At a general membership meeting the membership assembly can require, by a two-thirds vote, that the board produce and read the contents of board minutes.  Otherwise they have no right to know what is in the board minutes, if the rules in RONR apply.

[Guest SAG]

The minutes I am referring to are the previous months general membership meeting's minutes. I am not on the board and I am NOT referring to the board's meeting minutes.  I am referring to the general membership meeting minutes.  Rather than read those May's meeting minutes at the June meeting a vote was taken to waive the reading.  This is the only thing our bylaws reference as far as minutes:

Parliamentary procedure shall be in accordance with revised Robert’s Rules of Order insofar as they do not conflict with the Constitution and By-Laws of this Local Union.

ARTICLE XVII- FORCE AND EFFECT

 The Constitution and By-Laws shall be in force and effect on and after an affirmation vote of two-thirds of the members present and voting at the next scheduled business meeting.

 ARTICLE XVIII- ORDER OF BUSINESS

 The following shall be the order of business observed at all regular business meetings of the Local Union:

 1.      Pledge of Allegiance

2.      Attendance

3.      Roll Call of Officers

4.      Reading of Minutes

 

[Richard Brown]

Thank you, this additional information helps!  All of the references to board meetings had me wondering if you are referring to board meetings.

Unless your rules provide otherwise, RONR requires that the minutes of the previous meeting (or of any meeting whose minutes are being approved) be read aloud on the request or demand of a single member.  There should be no vote taken on reading the minutes:  It is REQUIRED upon the demand of a single member.  The reading of the minutes can be dispensed with TEMPORARILY by a majority vote, but those minutes should still be read later in the same meeting or at the next meeting.  It is also possible to suspend the rules requiring that the minutes be read by a two-thirds vote.  Typically, when the minutes have been distributed in advance (or even at the start of the meeting) to the members, the minutes are not read aloud unless requested or demanded by a member.  If the membership does not want to conduct the reading and approval of the minutes itself, it can adopt a motion or a rule authorizing the appointment of a committee for the purpose of approving the minutes or may refer the minutes to the board for approval.  Regardless of how it is done, the minutes of EACH meeting should be approved and made available to the membership to inspect.

Since it is hard to summarize all of the relevant rules regarding the minutes here, I strongly suggest that you get a copy of RONR (12th ed.) or RONR in Brief and study the sections on the reading and approval of the minutes and what they should contain.  In RONR, the reading and approval of the minutes is covered in sections 41:9-12 and 48:9-15.   What the minutes should contain and sample minutes are in sections 48:1-8.  It is also covered in several places in RONR In Brief. 

RONR in Brief is about $8 from Amazon.  RONR is about $13.50.  Another good book, which can be very helpful in understanding RONR, is Robert's Rules for Dummies by C. Alan Jennings.  The current 4th edition, which is keyed to the 12th edition of RONR for references, is $16. It can be a big help in understanding some of the more complex provisions of RONR, but it is not a substitute for RONR.

[Guest SAG]

Thank you so much! This President and his Chairman have broken so many rules!  

I did buy a small Robert's Rules book but I honestly found it soooo confusing.  I am going to go back and read the section you stated but I can't thank you enough! 

[Weldon Merritt]

On 6/20/2024 at 2:37 PM, Richard Brown said:

It is also possible to suspend the rules requiring that the minutes be read by a two-thirds vote.

I disagree. "[N]o rule protecting a minority of a particular size can be suspended in the face of a negative vote as large as the minority protected by the rule." RONR 25:2(7). Since a single member has a right to demand reading of even pre-distributed minutes, it would take a unanimous vote to suspend that rule. But I believe that a special rule of order could be adopted to provide that pre-distributed minutes need not be read.

[Richard Brown]

On 6/20/2024 at 3:17 PM, Weldon Merritt said:

I disagree. "[N]o rule protecting a minority of a particular size can be suspended in the face of a negative vote as large as the minority protected by the rule." RONR 25:2(7). Since a single member has a right to demand reading of even pre-distributed minutes, it would take a unanimous vote to suspend that rule. But I believe that a special rule of order could be adopted to provide that pre-distributed minutes need not be read.

Good point, Weldon!  I had forgotten about that.  You are absolutely correct.  I agree that, based on the quoted provision of RONR, the rule requiring that the minutes be read aloud on the demand of a single member apparently cannot be suspended except by unanimous consent..... which can't happen if one member is insisting that the minutes be read.  I also agree that a special rule of order regarding the reading of minutes could be adopted.

Edited to add:  It does seem, though, that if enough of the members are determined to not have the minutes read at a meeting, a member could move to dispense with the reading of the minutes as provided in 48:11.  If that motion is adopted by a majority vote, the reading of the minutes is "in suspense" (my words...not from RONR) much like a matter which has been laid on the table.  Since it requires a majority vote to read the minutes later after the reading has been dispensed with (just as with taking a matter from the table), it seems that a majority can effectively prevent the reading of the minutes at a particular meeting.

Now, whether it is in order for a member to move to "dispense with the reading of the minutes" after a member has insisted that they can be read is something I'm not so sure of, but I think such a motion would be in order at that time.  I welcome other opinions, though!

Edited June 20, 2024 at 08:50 PM by Richard Brown
Added last two paragraphs

[Rob Elsman]

Assuming the member is demanding the reading for information, he has the right to have the minutes read before being asked to approve them.  If the demand has been properly made, a motion to "dispense with the reading of the minutes" is not in order, since the assembly does not have the right to deprive the member of his right to hear them read before being asked to approve them.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 6/21/2024 at 11:35 AM, Rob Elsman said:

Assuming the member is demanding the reading for information, he has the right to have the minutes read before being asked to approve them.  If the demand has been properly made, a motion to "dispense with the reading of the minutes" is not in order, since the assembly does not have the right to deprive the member of his right to hear them read before being asked to approve them.

I don't think "dispensing" would violate that right, since it only postpones the Reading and Approval.  When the minutes are taken up again, the demand that they be read would still be in effect.

This seems to me analogous to the motion to Postpone Definitely taking precedence over a motion to Amend or Commit.  Members have a right to debate these motions, but the motion to Postpone only delays but does not violate that right.  Moving to dispense with reading is essentially a motion to postpone the approval process to later in the meeting, although I can see an argument can be made that it is equivalent to a motion to lay the approval on the table.

Edited June 21, 2024 at 04:16 PM by Gary Novosielski

[Richard Brown]

On 6/21/2024 at 10:35 AM, Rob Elsman said:

. . .   If the demand has been properly made, a motion to "dispense with the reading of the minutes" is not in order, since the assembly does not have the right to deprive the member of his right to hear them read before being asked to approve them.

I disagree. Section 48:11 makes it plain that the motion to dispense with the reading of the minutes is an order at any time while the reading and approval of the minutes is pending. I will quote the section in full below:

“48:11 If the assembly does not wish to carry out the reading and approval of the minutes at the regular time, it may, by majority vote without debate, “dispense with the reading of the minutes.” The minutes can then be taken up by majority vote without debate at any later time during the meeting while no business is pending, under the same rules as those governing Take from the Table (34). If the minutes are not thus taken up before adjournment, they are read and approved at the following meeting, before the later minutes are taken up. A motion to “dispense with the reading of the minutes” is not a request to omit their reading altogether; it can be made at any time while the minutes are actually pending for approval regardless of whether the minutes have already been read or corrected in some respect.”

 

[Guest SAG]

I'm sorry but I am thoroughly confused.  

1- I'm not even sure if the minutes have been approved -there was no mention of it in the meeting

2- Who has the authority to approve the minutes?

3-Ultimately , if I wanted the minutes read, can I be denied the right to have them read?

[Joshua Katz]

On 6/21/2024 at 6:30 PM, Guest SAG said:

1- I'm not even sure if the minutes have been approved -there was no mention of it in the meeting

 

The minutes should be approved as the first business item at the next meeting. 

On 6/21/2024 at 6:30 PM, Guest SAG said:

2- Who has the authority to approve the minutes?

 

In general, the assembly whose minutes they are. At the next meeting, the minutes are read, amended as needed, and then approved.

On 6/21/2024 at 6:30 PM, Guest SAG said:

3-Ultimately , if I wanted the minutes read, can I be denied the right to have them read?

No, the minutes must be read on the demand of a single member.