Elections

[Joshua Katz]

On 5/15/2022 at 7:43 AM, Angie N said:

And the meeting adjourned stating that the current officer will stay in place until elections however there are no provisions in our bylaws about vacancies so I don't believe that's the correct solution.

By "until elections," do you mean until the next elections? That is not right. For whether the person should be in office at the moment, until the election is completed, what do your bylaws say about the term of office?

[Angie N]

On 5/15/2022 at 7:53 AM, Joshua Katz said:

By "until elections," do you mean until the next elections? That is not right. For whether the person should be in office at the moment, until the election is completed, what do your bylaws say about the term of office?

Mr. Katz, yes I meant until the next election - thank you for the correction. The bylaws say the term of office for the position is 2 years. No further information about filling vacancies. 

[Joshua Katz]

On 5/15/2022 at 10:20 AM, Angie N said:

The bylaws say the term of office for the position is 2 years.

Is that all they say? Or is there some language about "until their successors are elected"? If the term is only 2 years, and has expired, there is no reason for the person to be in office now.

[Richard Brown]

@Angie Nto follow up on the comment immediately above by Mr. Katz, please quote for us exactly what your bylaws say about the terms of office. Do not paraphrase and do not leave out part of the provision. It is very important to know whether there is a provision anywhere in your bylaws to the effect that officers continue to serve until their successors are elected.

[Angie N]

On 5/15/2022 at 10:24 AM, Joshua Katz said:

Is that all they say? Or is there some language about "until their successors are elected"? If the term is only 2 years, and has expired, there is no reason for the person to be in office now.

@Richard Brown This is exactly what is stated in the bylaws. 

"The term of office shall be two years."

There is no other language about vacancies or until successors are elected. 

[Rob Elsman]

The time within which the announced results of an election can be contested is discussed specifically in RONR (12th ed.) 46:49.  Note that the period of time within which the contest may be raised varies, depending on the grounds upon which the contest is based.

In cases where no continuing breach of the rules is involved, the expiration of the limited time within which a contest must be raised imposes a duty on all the members of the electing body to graciously accept the results and move forward collectively to pursue the objectives of the organization.  Continuous contention and disaffection by those whose preferred choices did not win is unacceptable.

[Joshua Katz]

On 5/16/2022 at 3:45 PM, Angie N said:

There is no other language about vacancies or until successors are elected. 

Then, knowing only this, I have not seen anything that persuades me a person should remain in office longer than 2 years. However, I have not looked over your bylaws.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 5/16/2022 at 5:05 PM, Rob Elsman said:

The time within which the announced results of an election can be contested is discussed specifically in RONR (12th ed.) 46:49.  Note that the period of time within which the contest may be raised varies, depending on the grounds upon which the contest is based.

In cases where no continuing breach of the rules is involved, the expiration of the limited time within which a contest must be raised imposes a duty on all the members of the electing body to graciously accept the results and move forward collectively to pursue the objectives of the organization.  Continuous contention and disaffection by those whose preferred choices did not win is unacceptable.

Y'think? 

[Angie N]

Hello again. I'm sorry to beat this dead horse however I have another question. The election was contested and our Parliamentarian declared the entire election invalid due to the ballot being incorrect and members not present at the meeting and voted. It was about 5 which wouldn't change the results for any of the candidates. 

I understand the points made here about contesting the election had to be timely with a point of order during the meeting and it wasn't. I also don't believe we should be doing the entire election over just filling the vacancy. Based on 46:50, can the membership decide that the election was invalid and we have the election over? Are they any other RONR references that would explain why the election was valid and just incomplete? Thanks again @Gary Novosielski @Joshua Katz@Atul Kapur@Richard Brown

Edited May 24, 2022 at 08:48 PM by Angie N

[Joshua Katz]

On 5/24/2022 at 4:47 PM, Angie N said:

The election was contested and our Parliamentarian declared the entire election invalid due to the ballot being incorrect and members not present at the meeting and voted.

Where does your parliamentarian claim to get this authority from? Parliamentarians are advisors, not decision-makers.

 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 5/24/2022 at 4:47 PM, Angie N said:

Hello again. I'm sorry to beat this dead horse however I have another question. The election was contested and our Parliamentarian declared the entire election invalid due to the ballot being incorrect and members not present at the meeting and voted. It was about 5 which wouldn't change the results for any of the candidates. 

I understand the points made here about contesting the election had to be timely with a point of order during the meeting and it wasn't. I also don't believe we should be doing the entire election over just filling the vacancy. Based on 46:50, can the membership decide that the election was invalid and we have the election over? Are they any other RONR references that would explain why the election was valid and just incomplete? Thanks again @Gary Novosielski @Joshua Katz@Atul Kapur@Richard Brown

Time to get a parliamentarian who knows about parliamentary procedure.

[Angie N]

On 5/24/2022 at 7:00 PM, Joshua Katz said:

Where does your parliamentarian claim to get this authority from? Parliamentarians are advisors, not decision-makers.

 

It was presented by the president agreeing with this recommendation from the Parliamentarian. 

There has been a lot of back and forth about next steps other than  filling the vacancy. The president is even considering just declaring the unopposed candidate the winner. It was said she never declared her the winner or "loser" she just adjourned the meeting not knowing what to do because the no votes were counted as the majority.  Can he do this? 

Our bylaws say elections are done by secret ballot. 

[Angie N]

On 5/24/2022 at 7:41 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Time to get a parliamentarian who knows about parliamentary procedure.

I understand your comment however they are elected in my organization

[Angie N]

On 5/24/2022 at 8:20 PM, Angie N said:

I understand your comment however they are elected in my organization

I really want us to get this corrected properly. 

[Rob Elsman]

My own guess is that this organization was, in no way, prepared to conduct an election.  It was not prepared yesterday; it is not prepared today; and, it will not be prepared tomorrow.  Whether or not it will be prepared in the long-range is difficult to predict.  Meanwhile, the organization needs to keep functioning, even if things are not "corrected properly".

Given these things, I suggest that it is time to move on.  All the members need to unite and work together for the sake of the organization.

[Angie N]

On 5/24/2022 at 8:58 PM, Rob Elsman said:

My own guess is that this organization was, in no way, prepared to conduct an election.  It was not prepared yesterday; it is not prepared today; and, it will not be prepared tomorrow.  Whether or not it will be prepared in the long-range is difficult to predict.  Meanwhile, the organization needs to keep functioning, even if things are not "corrected properly".

Given these things, I suggest that it is time to move on.  All the members need to unite and work together for the sake of the organization.

I appreciate your opinion and agree we may not have been prepared. We will definitely move on however we are having a special meeting for the vacancy and I want to be able to ensure we get this right. 

[Rob Elsman]

I am betting we will not get this right.  This group does not know how to get this right, and it will not know how to get this right at the special meeting.  The best you can hope is that something, right or wrong, will be done.  Just move on.

[Angie N]

On 5/24/2022 at 10:15 PM, Rob Elsman said:

I am betting we will not get this right.  This group does not know how to get this right, and it will not know how to get this right at the special meeting.  The best you can hope is that something, right or wrong, will be done.  Just move on.

Thank you! With the proper guidance we will. 

[Rob Elsman]

On 5/24/2022 at 9:36 PM, Angie N said:

Thank you! With the proper guidance we will. 

No, you will not.  It is unrealistic to expect to create a silver purse from a sow's ear in the middle of an election cycle.  Any attempt to do so, even one that is motivated by the best of intentions, will be seen, by one faction or another, as an attempt to manipulate the election procedure for the advantage of one candidate over another.

Since no discussion, planning or preparation was done over the last winter, the group will be on a forced march to make up for the lost effort in time for next year's elections.

[Atul Kapur]

On 5/24/2022 at 8:21 PM, Angie N said:

I really want us to get this corrected properly. 

Angie, I am not as pessimistic or nihilistic as Mr. Elsman. However, your situation appears to be complex enough that your organization should hire a professional parliamentarian who can review the facts and your bylaws and rules in detail, and then provide an opinion with advice on how to go forward from here. One benefit of this path is that the external, independent parliamentarian may be seen as impartial, compared to any members of the organization. 

[Angie N]

On 5/25/2022 at 5:39 PM, Atul Kapur said:

Angie, I am not as pessimistic or nihilistic as Mr. Elsman. However, your situation appears to be complex enough that your organization should hire a professional parliamentarian who can review the facts and your bylaws and rules in detail, and then provide an opinion with advice on how to go forward from here. One benefit of this path is that the external, independent parliamentarian may be seen as impartial, compared to any members of the organization. 

Thank you Mr. Kapur! I do appreciate this response and suggestion. I am also more optimistic. I am a part of this group and the fact that I am asking questions here for guidance, does in fact say we want to get it right even I represent a small population.