Elections

[Angie N]

Hello,

Can an election process be contested after winners are announced and the meeting is over? If so, what steps should be taken? Also if there is a reference in RONR, please let me know.

Thank you!! 

[Bruce Lages]

In most cases a challenge to the results of an election must be raised, via point of order, at or immediately after,the time the election results are announced. However there are certain conditions which would create a continuing breach, for which a point of order can be raised at any time the breach is ongoing. RONR (12th ed.) describes those conditions in detail in Section 46:48-49. One example of such a continuing breach would be the election of a person who does not meet the qualifications for office stipulated in the bylaws. The breach is ongoing as long as that person remains in office.

[Angie N]

On 5/14/2022 at 2:23 PM, Bruce Lages said:

In most cases a challenge to the results of an election must be raised, via point of order, at or immediately after,the time the election results are announced. However there are certain conditions which would create a continuing breach, for which a point of order can be raised at any time the breach is ongoing. RONR (12th ed.) describes those conditions in detail in Section 46:48-49. One example of such a continuing breach would be the election of a person who does not meet the qualifications for office stipulated in the bylaws. The breach is ongoing as long as that person remains in office.

Thank you for this information. This particular instance the ballot itself was incorrect. It did not allow write ins instead it had a "No" option for candidates. I do recall RONR mentioned that should not be an option for elections. Could this election be considered invalid? 

[Joshua Katz]

On 5/14/2022 at 2:42 PM, Angie N said:

. I do recall RONR mentioned that should not be an option for elections.

You are correct.

On 5/14/2022 at 2:42 PM, Angie N said:

Could this election be considered invalid? 

I believe a point of order on that matter would need to be timely, and is no longer timely.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 5/14/2022 at 2:42 PM, Angie N said:

Thank you for this information. This particular instance the ballot itself was incorrect. It did not allow write ins instead it had a "No" option for candidates. I do recall RONR mentioned that should not be an option for elections. Could this election be considered invalid? 

It probably could have, if a Point of Order had been raised at the time, but I agree with @Joshua Katzthat if no one had a problem with it at the time, it does not seem to a continuing breach at this point.

[Angie N]

On 5/14/2022 at 3:43 PM, Joshua Katz said:

You are correct.

I believe a point of order on that matter would need to be timely, and is no longer timely.

How is timely defined? Does it have to be in the same meeting or the same day? 

[Angie N]

On 5/14/2022 at 3:51 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

It probably could have, if a Point of Order had been raised at the time, but I agree with @Joshua Katzthat if no one had a problem with it at the time, it does not seem to a continuing breach at this point.

I think the issue was more of not knowing what to do not necessarily that no one had a problem

[Joshua Katz]

On 5/14/2022 at 4:15 PM, Angie N said:

How is timely defined? Does it have to be in the same meeting or the same day? 

It would need to be before the election was completed. In general, points of order are timely while the actions objected to are ongoing. In this case, what is objected to is the ballots used for the election; once the election is completed, those are no longer at issue.

[Richard Brown]

On 5/14/2022 at 3:15 PM, Angie N said:

How is timely defined? Does it have to be in the same meeting or the same day? 

 I agree with my colleagues. In this case, a port of order would need to have been raised about the improper ballots or instructions at the time of the election. It is too late now.

[Angie N]

On 5/14/2022 at 4:40 PM, Richard Brown said:

 I agree with my colleagues. In this case, a port of order would need to have been raised about the improper ballots or instructions at the time of the election. It is too late now.

Ok thank you. Does the elections report have to be accepted for the election to be valid? 

[Angie N]

On 5/14/2022 at 4:34 PM, Joshua Katz said:

It would need to be before the election was completed. In general, points of order are timely while the actions objected to are ongoing. In this case, what is objected to is the ballots used for the election; once the election is completed, those are no longer at issue.

If there was no motion to accept the elections report, is it considered complete? 

[Richard Brown]

On 5/14/2022 at 3:44 PM, Angie N said:

Ok thank you. Does the elections report have to be accepted for the election to be valid? 

No. After the ballots are counted, the normal procedure is for the head teller to read the results out loud but not to declare anyone as a winner. He then hands the report to the chair who again reads the results to the assembly and declares the results or winners. There does not need to be a motion to “Accept the results“.

Edited to add: See sections 45:37 through 45:41 of RONR (12th ed.) for the process of announcing the results of an election and declaring the results (outcome). 

Edited May 14, 2022 at 08:58 PM by Richard Brown
Added last paragraph

[Richard Brown]

On 5/14/2022 at 3:46 PM, Angie N said:

If there was no motion to accept the elections report, is it considered complete? 

Yes. 

[Rob Elsman]

On 5/14/2022 at 3:40 PM, Richard Brown said:

port of order

May I get hold of a bottle?

[Richard Brown]

On 5/14/2022 at 4:10 PM, Rob Elsman said:

May I get hold of a bottle?

I live in New Orleans, so it is quite possible I can find one! Thanks for catching the mistake!

[Angie N]

On 5/14/2022 at 4:51 PM, Richard Brown said:

No. After the ballots are counted, the normal procedure is for the head teller to read the results out loud but not to declare anyone as a winner. He then hands the report to the chair who again reads the results to the assembly and declares the results or winners. There does not need to be a motion to “Accept the results“.

Edited to add: See sections 45:37 through 45:41 of RONR (12th ed.) for the process of announcing the results of an election and declaring the results (outcome). 

Thank you the references! I appreciate this. 

[Angie N]

On 5/14/2022 at 4:51 PM, Richard Brown said:

No. After the ballots are counted, the normal procedure is for the head teller to read the results out loud but not to declare anyone as a winner. He then hands the report to the chair who again reads the results to the assembly and declares the results or winners. There does not need to be a motion to “Accept the results“.

Edited to add: See sections 45:37 through 45:41 of RONR (12th ed.) for the process of announcing the results of an election and declaring the results (outcome). 

I have a follow up question. The chair did declare the results however one of the candidates on the ballot was not on the call to contest the results. I know it was mentioned in this thread that it had to be timely to contest. One of the candidates does plan to contest because he was an unopposed candidate and as a result of the ballot having a no option instead of a write in he lost. Would this be scenario be  in order or is the election still final with no alternative solution to rectify? 

[Richard Brown]

Unfortunately, this is the type of error that would have to have been pointed out by raising a point of order at the time of the election.  The election is valid.

[Atul Kapur]

The absent candidate does not have grounds to object now. The election appears to be incomplete and should be completed at the next opportunity. This losing candidate may be nominated again.

[Richard Brown]

If in fact no one was elected to that position, then I agree with Dr. Kapur that it is an incomplete election and it should be completed as soon as possible. If the nominations are reopened, as they almost certainly  should be, the losing candidate may be nominated again. He may also be elected as a write-in candidate if he is not nominated.  

[Gary Novosielski]

On 5/14/2022 at 5:10 PM, Rob Elsman said:

May I get hold of a bottle?

That sounds more like an order of port.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 5/14/2022 at 4:16 PM, Angie N said:

I think the issue was more of not knowing what to do not necessarily that no one had a problem

Sadly that is very often the case.  And sadly that often means there is no remedy.  

This is often referred to (if somewhat unsympathetically) as "you snooze, you lose."

it's is important, when you notice a rule is being broken, to remember that it is the right and duty of all members to speak up at the time.  The tool to use for this purpose is the Point of Order [RONR (12th ed.) §23]. 

This motion:

• Takes precedence over whatever is going on at the time
• Does not need to be recognized.
• Can even interrupt someone who is speaking at the time, if necessary.
• Does not require a second
• Is not debatable or amendable.
• Typically it is ruled on by the chair, without any vote (unless an Appeal (§24) is moved.)

See 23:12 ff. for the proper Form and Example of raising a point of order.

Edited May 15, 2022 at 06:12 AM by Gary Novosielski

[Angie N]

On 5/15/2022 at 12:33 AM, Richard Brown said:

If in fact no one was elected to that position, then I agree with Dr. Kapur that it is an incomplete election and it should be completed as soon as possible. If the nominations are reopened, as they almost certainly  should be, the losing candidate may be nominated again. He may also be elected as a write-in candidate if he is not nominated.  

That is correct. The no votes got the majority for this candidate. And the meeting adjourned stating that the current officer will stay in place until elections however there are no provisions in our bylaws about vacancies so I don't believe that's the correct solution. Thank you for your help. This makes sense that election is incomplete. 

[Angie N]

On 5/15/2022 at 12:18 AM, Atul Kapur said:

The absent candidate does not have grounds to object now. The election appears to be incomplete and should be completed at the next opportunity. This losing candidate may be nominated again.

Thank you for responding. This is helpful. 

[Angie N]

On 5/15/2022 at 2:11 AM, Gary Novosielski said:

Sadly that is very often the case.  And sadly that often means there is no remedy.  

This is often referred to (if somewhat unsympathetically) as "you snooze, you lose."

it's is important, when you notice a rule is being broken, to remember that it is the right and duty of all members to speak up at the time.  The tool to use for this purpose is the Point of Order [RONR (12th ed.) §23]. 

This motion:

• Takes precedence over whatever is going on at the time
• Does not need to be recognized.
• Can even interrupt someone who is speaking at the time, if necessary.
• Does not require a second
• Is not debatable or amendable.
• Typically it is ruled on by the chair, without any vote (unless an Appeal (§24) is moved.)

See 23:12 ff. for the proper Form and Example of raising a point of order.

Thank you for this information. I will certainly pass along so hopefully this doesn't happen again.