Amendments

[PAPS]

Now, that makes more sense to me...we still have an outstanding motion left unattended.

Amy

 

[Rob Elsman]

Yes, the chair should call up the item of business at the time assigned for unfinished business in the established order of business.  If he fails to call it up in its proper place, any member may interrupt to make the privileged motion, Call for the Orders of the Day, to have it called up.

[PAPS]

So at our next meeting, I need to add the original motion to Unfinished Business to 'close out' the Original Motion?

Amy

 

[Rob Elsman]

Add to what?  Do you prepare the memorandum for the president to use to call up the items of business in their proper order?

[Rob Elsman]

I don't get this original motion thing.  What is not disposed of is the main motion, as amended.  I don't get this fascination with the original form of the main motion.  What gives?

[PAPS]

As the President, I establish the agenda with input for any additional items to be discussed from Board or Club Members. I'm sorry if I am not explaining myself clearly. I thought the forum was to help officers like myself better understand the use of RONR despite us being such a small club. If I am mistaken, then I will quit asking to clarification or help and drop off.

1) The 'original motion' was made by another club member - "I move that we set a working limit of $300 for the KISS show and $800 for the Classic show". It was Seconded.

2) The Amended Motion read "I move that if no donations are made to offset the trophies then a working limit of $300 for the KISS show and $800 for the Classic Show from the Trophy Fund applies." This was Seconded and Passed.

No action taken on the 'original motion' (#1)

Amy

[Atul Kapur]

On 5/18/2022 at 11:21 PM, PAPS said:

I thought the forum was to help officers like myself better understand the use of RONR despite us being such a small club. If I am mistaken, then I will quit asking to clarification or help and drop off

Some people put more attitude in their responses. Don't mind them.

On 5/18/2022 at 11:21 PM, PAPS said:

No action taken on the 'original motion' (#1)

While you didnt follow the steps ezplicitly (and skipped one), you did, effectively, take action on motion #1, by amending it. After Motion #1 was moved and seconded, it was "on the floor" or "pending". Motion #2 was not in order as a separate main (original) Motion while M1 was pending. (You can only have one main motion on the floor at a time.)

So, as M2 could not be a main motion, it was a substitute for M1. A substitution is a type of an amendment. It appears clear that you adopted a motion to substitute M2 for M1. What is not clear is whether you then went on to approve the amended motion (the missed step that I referred to earlier).

In any case, M1 is  no longer on the floor. 

I have not read the thread in enough detail to tell whether the amended motion needs to come up for decision at the next meeting or whether you declared the amended motion adopted.

[Joshua Katz]

On 5/18/2022 at 11:21 PM, PAPS said:

1) The 'original motion' was made by another club member - "I move that we set a working limit of $300 for the KISS show and $800 for the Classic show". It was Seconded.

2) The Amended Motion read "I move that if no donations are made to offset the trophies then a working limit of $300 for the KISS show and $800 for the Classic Show from the Trophy Fund applies." This was Seconded and Passed.

No action taken on the 'original motion' (#1)

As I now understand things, 1 was moved, then 2 was substituted, then nothing happened. After 2 was substituted, it was the pending motion. Since nothing was decided about it, it is now unfinished business. That's the only motion that exists - technically, what happened was that 1 was the language, then it was removed and replaced by 2, so it was always one motion. There weren't two motions bouncing around, there was one, and you were discussing what its language should be. In any event, though, it is the language you show in 2 that will come up at the next meeting, and the organization can decide what to do with it - vote it up, vote it down, or rescind the substitution and get 1 back. 

Why is 2 the language and not 1? Here's another way to think about it: the organization decided it preferred to consider the language in 2 over that in 1. The fact of adjourning without a final decision doesn't make that decision go away, so the language in 2 is what you are considering.

 

On 5/18/2022 at 11:21 PM, PAPS said:

As the President, I establish the agenda with input for any additional items to be discussed from Board or Club Members. I'm sorry if I am not explaining myself clearly.

Unless special rules or laws apply, under the rules in RONR, as President, you establish a proposed agenda. That needs to come up for adoption at the meeting, at which time members can amend it as other motions. That's the RONR approach, anyway; many times, Sunshine Laws apply and require something different.

In any case, RONR recommends not using an agenda for organizations that meet as often as quarterly. 

Edited May 19, 2022 at 10:05 AM by Joshua Katz

[PAPS]

To both Joshua Katz and Atul Kapur, thank you for the more detailed explain.

Motion #2 (hence the amendment) was moved, seconded and voted to accept. It passed). We didn't adjourn before #2 was voted upon.

Regarding agendas ("In any case, RONR recommends not using an agenda for organizations that meet as often as quarterly"). As a small club, we only meet quarterly, but I thought agendas were designed to help keep meetings on track, not to forget active topics and to introduce new ones.

Thank you again,

Amy

 

[Rob Elsman]

An assembly that meets quarterly should not be using an agenda, much less an agenda dictated by the presiding officer.  The established order of business should be followed.  It is perfectly proper for the presiding officer to prepare for himself a memorandum laying out the assigned order for calling up items of business, but this memorandum is not binding to the extent that it deviates from the proper order of business under the rules.  So, if the memorandum contains a mistake or omission, the rules prevail.

Because I know from experience on this forum how frequently groups get into trouble through the misuse of the agenda, I strongly urge ordinary societies that meet frequently and for which the standard order of business is practical to drop the use of the agenda and use the standard order of business as the established order of business.

[Atul Kapur]

On 5/19/2022 at 9:30 AM, PAPS said:

Motion #2 (hence the amendment) was moved, seconded and voted to accept. It passed). We didn't adjourn before #2 was voted upon

M2 required two votes. The first vote would have been on M2 being substituted for (or replacing) M1 as the pending main motion ("Do we think M2 is better than M1?"); then a vote to adopt the immediate pending motion ("Do we want to adopt M2?"). This second vote is the "skipped step" that I mentioned previously.

However, I am not clear what the presiding officer declared. If the chair announced that the motion was adopted, and no one objected, then the second step may have been done accidentally and there may not be anything to bring to the next meeting. Otherwise, the second step can be brought to the next meeting as unfinished business.

In any case, M1 does not need to be resurrected. It's gone, having been replaced by M2.

[PAPS]

To Rob Elsman, this is what I call our 'agenda' which I think you to mean as a Standard Order of Business.

     Roll Call

     Minutes of last meeting

     Report of President

     Report of Secretary

     Report of Treasurer

     Report of Committees

     Election of Officers and Board (annual meeting)

     Election of new members

     Unfinished business

     New business

     Adjournment

Amy

 

 

[PAPS]

To Atul Kapur,

Thank you for your recent reply. I will use it to explain to our Board and Members. Hence, I knew something was missing but couldn't interpret/explain properly what I failed to do.

Amy

 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 5/18/2022 at 5:02 PM, PAPS said:

Thank you for the reference to the RONR in Brief. It looks like as President I should have treated it as a substitution. And that the original motion still needed to be acted upon.

Welllllll, not exactly.

Once a substitute has been adopted, it replaces the original motion as the pending business.  So it's not the original motion that then needs to be acted upon, it's still the motion as amended (an amendment in the nature of a substitute.)

That may be what you meant.  If so, carry on. 🙂

 

[Dan Honemann]

On 5/18/2022 at 11:21 PM, PAPS said:

As the President, I establish the agenda with input for any additional items to be discussed from Board or Club Members. I'm sorry if I am not explaining myself clearly.

I'm sorry, but I still am not clear on what you mean by this.

Do your bylaws give you the authority to establish the agenda? Do you do so for both board meetings and membership meetings? Has your organization adopted RONR as its parliamentary authority?

 

[PAPS]

To Dan Honemann,

It appears I use the word 'Agenda' to mean Standard Order of Business. This is the order that we used and is defined in our By-Laws to follow.

     Roll Call

     Minutes of last meeting

     Report of President

     Report of Secretary

     Report of Treasurer

     Report of Committees

     Election of Officers and Board (annual meeting)

     Election of new members

     Unfinished business

     New business

     Adjournment

 

The 'Order of Business', or what I call agenda is as shown. Our Board and Members have input as to topics or Subject Matter that may need to be discussed under appropriate category. There is no language in our By-Laws as to who can or can't submit discussion items for the 'agenda'. We actually encourage dialogue.

Amy

 

[Rob Elsman]

If RONR (12th ed.) is the club's parliamentary authority, the "who" and "how" of the assignment of items of business to their proper places in the established order of business is remarkably well defined.  Although many find the section a difficult read, in my opinion, it is likely the best written section in the book on account of its concise language and its compact style.  Take a look at RONR (12th ed.) §41.