Amendments

[PAPS]

Good morning!

Last night we had a motion on the floor and it was seconded. Debate ensued and an Amendment was suggested. Everyone liked it, it was seconded and passed.

What happens to the original motion that was seconded? Did it require action or did the passage of the Amendment override the original motion?

Thank you,

Amy

 

[George Mervosh]

After the amendment was adopted, the original main motion, as amended, should have been the pending motion and open to further debate and possible amendment (or other secondary motions being made) before being voted on in its final form.  

Edited May 18, 2022 at 05:35 PM by George Mervosh

[Gary Novosielski]

On 5/18/2022 at 1:25 PM, PAPS said:

Good morning!

Last night we had a motion on the floor and it was seconded. Debate ensued and an Amendment was suggested. Everyone liked it, it was seconded and passed.

What happens to the original motion that was seconded? Did it require action or did the passage of the Amendment override the original motion?

Thank you,

Amy

 

The original motion, now amended, is still not adopted.  There might be other amendments offered, additional discussion, it might be referred to a committee, postponed, or perhaps none of these things.  But it's not adopted (or rejected) until a final vote is taken.

[Joshua Katz]

On 5/18/2022 at 1:25 PM, PAPS said:

Last night we had a motion on the floor and it was seconded. Debate ensued and an Amendment was suggested. Everyone liked it, it was seconded and passed.

What happens to the original motion that was seconded? Did it require action or did the passage of the Amendment override the original motion?

 

This is the kind of question that often indicates something went wrong in the organization's handling of the motion. So, it will help if you lay out what happened. Let's start with this: was the amendment something that RONR calls an amendment - i.e., an addition or insertion, strike out, or strike out and insertion of language? Or was it more in the nature of an amendment by substitution, i.e. substituting a new motion?

[Guest Amy]

Hi, the amendment was more of a clarification to the original which actually made more sense.

The original motion stated how much funds are to be spent on trophies without clarifying the criteria. So the amendment provided that criteria.

Amy

[George Mervosh]

On 5/18/2022 at 4:35 PM, Guest Amy said:

Hi, the amendment was more of a clarification to the original which actually made more sense.

The original motion stated how much funds are to be spent on trophies without clarifying the criteria. So the amendment provided that criteria.

If the presiding officer declared the original motion with the added criteria adopted, then it should be considered adopted.  It is too late now to raise a point of order about improperly handling an amendment.  I think amend is the most complicated section in the book but RONR In Brief, 3rd Edition, Chapter 5 on amendments is quite readable and not too hard to understand.  Perhaps the presiding officer should review it carefully then move onto the big book.

[Rob Elsman]

After the subsidiary motion, Amend, is adopted, the main motion, as amended, is pending before the assembly.  The original form of the main motion can be brought back before the assembly by rejecting the previously adopted subsidiary motion upon reconsideration.

[PAPS]

Thank you for the reference to the RONR in Brief. It looks like as President I should have treated it as a substitution. And that the original motion still needed to be acted upon.

Amy

 

[Joshua Katz]

On 5/18/2022 at 5:02 PM, PAPS said:

Thank you for the reference to the RONR in Brief. It looks like as President I should have treated it as a substitution. And that the original motion still needed to be acted upon.

 

Let's assume this is correct. Mr. X moves A. Mr. Y moves an amendment by substitution, B. If the motion to amend by substitution is adopted, B is now the pending question. A does not still need to be acted upon; it's no longer before the assembly. The question then becomes whether or not B should be adopted. 

[PAPS]

Oh, so "A" dies since it was substituted?

Amy

 

[Joshua Katz]

On 5/18/2022 at 5:09 PM, PAPS said:

Oh, so "A" dies since it was substituted?

 

Well, I guess that's one way to look at it, and yes, it gets you to the right conclusion. A purist would argue it didn't die, it was amended. The language used to say A, now it says B, but it's the same motion, so the A language has simply been removed and nothing has died. But either way you look at it, nothing needs to be done with it. Look at it this way: suppose it was about setting dues (and the bylaws allowed setting dues by a standing rule). I move to set dues at $10. You move to strike out $10 and replace it with $20, so if your amendment were adopted, the motion would be to set dues at $20. Suppose it then passes. No one would think to ask what happened to the $10. 

[PAPS]

Ah....I appreciate this forum for it's clarity!

Thank you,

Amy

 

[Rob Elsman]

No, it is incorrect to say that the original form of a pending main motion "dies" upon adoption of a subsidiary motion, Amend.

[PAPS]

So then, I go back to my original question...the Amended motion was adopted. What should I have done with the original motion? Several members stated no action needed, but I had my doubts thus the reason I posted here.

Amy

[Joshua Katz]

On 5/18/2022 at 5:25 PM, PAPS said:

What should I have done with the original motion?

We are just pointing out that the pre-amendment language didn't die, it just wasn't there anymore. To go back to my example, the $10 didn't die, it just was no longer being considered once the amendment was adopted. The same is true for a substitution - the original language is no longer under consideration, but it didn't "die." The action does not count as the assembly having rejected the unamended motion - it took no action on it, and need not, (and should not) because it adopted something else instead. The fact remains that nothing needs to be done with the unamended language.

[Rob Elsman]

The assembly is free to do what it wishes.  If it wishes to reject the adopted subsidiary motion, Amend, upon reconsideration, and adopt the original form of the pending main motion, it may certainly do so.  On the other hand, it is free to adopt or reject the main motion, as amended.  It all depends on what the assembly wishes to do.

[PAPS]

Ah....okay, much clearer now....thank you for taking the extra time for explain.

Amy

 

[Joshua Katz]

Sure, but in this instance, it has already chosen. As I understand the facts, there was a pending motion, there was a motion to amend by substitution, the motion was adopted, and the amended motion was adopted. There's nothing left to do, and nothing to be done with the language from before the amendment. 

[PAPS]

Thank you!

Amy

 

[Rob Elsman]

Was a vote taken on the main motion, as amended?  If it was, I missed it.

[PAPS]

The first motion was made and seconded.....then discussion ensued to recommend an Amendment.

Amendment was made and seconded and APPROVED.

No vote had been taken on the first (original) motion.

Amy

 

[Joshua Katz]

On 5/18/2022 at 5:55 PM, PAPS said:

Amendment was made and seconded and APPROVED.

 

It seems Mr. Elsman and I are disagreeing on the facts. Let me ask this way and see if we can resolve that. Here is how an amendment should be handled:

A is moved.

It is move to amend A in a manner that will result in the pending motion being B.

The motion to amend is adopted by a majority vote (or unanimous consent).

Now B is the pending motion.

The pending motion, B, is then adopted by a second vote.

Is that what happened in your instance?

[Rob Elsman]

Yes, Mr. Katz and I are having difficulty determining what was the disposition of the main motion, as amended.  As far as I can tell from the facts given, it was not disposed of, in which case it should be called up as Unfinished Business at the next regular meeting occurring within the quarterly time interval.  Mr. Katz seems to think the main motion, as amended, was put to a vote, but I cannot determine from the information provided why he thinks that.

[PAPS]

Hi, the original motion read - "I move that we set a working limit of $300 for the KISS show and $800 for the Classic show". It was Seconded.

The Amendment read "I move that if no donations are made to offset the trophies then a working limit of $300 for the KISS show and $800 for the Classic Show from the Trophy Fund applies." This was Seconded and Passed.

No action taken on the first motion.

Hope this helps.

Amy

 

[Rob Elsman]

I think both Mr. Katz and I understand that the subsidiary motion, Amend, was adopted.  That is beyond controversy.  What is still up in the air is whether a vote was taken on the main motion, as amended.  I sounds like to me like this did not happen.  If I'm right, the main motion, as amended, has not been properly disposed of.  It remains for the assembly to take up the main motion, as amended, and vote on it.

It is a plausible scenario for a subsidiary motion, Amend, to be adopted, but the pending main motion, as amended, to be rejected.

Edited May 18, 2022 at 11:36 PM by Rob Elsman