Abstaining on a vote. How to count.

[Guest Tina Marie]

Hello,

My question pertains to abstain and how to count in a vote.

Recently, our board was presented with a motion on a controversial subject. Our board had six members in attendance and on board member absent.  Our bylaws state a majority of the board, 4,  constitute a quorum.   To pass a motion , a majority is needed   My question is on how to count a vote when a board member abstain on a vote on a motion.  

On this particular motion, six board members were present to vote.  Two board members voted to approve the motion. One board member voted to not approve the motion. Three board members voted to abstain.  

How is this vote counted?  The three board members who voted to abstain did vote.  How is these three abstain votes counted, yea, nay or....other.  Please help clarify this please. We need your professional opinion. 

Thank you  

[Phil D]

Unless your bylaws or parliamentary authority say otherwise, abstentions do not count at all. RONR generally calculates the result of a majority or 2/3 vote from members present and voting. 
 

Under those rules, whether there were 3 abstentions or 300, a vote of 2 ayes, 1 no is a 2/3 vote to adopt.

 

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

Abstaining is literally not voting.  They did not vote.

 

(some societies have a custom of recording abstentions like 2-1-3 but that is not RONR)

[Richard Brown]

Guest Tina Marie, we need more information in order to correctly answer your question. Please quote for us these two provisions from your bylaws: first, the provision regarding a quorum of the Board of Directors (or executive board). Second, the provision regarding the vote necessary to adopt emotion.

Please don’t paraphrase but rather quote each provision verbatim.  Depending on the exact wording of your bylaws, four yes votes might be necessary in order for a motion to be adopted.

Edited January 19, 2023 at 10:39 PM by Richard Brown
typographical correction

[Josh Martin]

On 1/18/2023 at 11:15 PM, Guest Tina Marie said:

My question pertains to abstain and how to count in a vote.

Recently, our board was presented with a motion on a controversial subject. Our board had six members in attendance and on board member absent.  Our bylaws state a majority of the board, 4,  constitute a quorum.   To pass a motion , a majority is needed   My question is on how to count a vote when a board member abstain on a vote on a motion.  

On this particular motion, six board members were present to vote.  Two board members voted to approve the motion. One board member voted to not approve the motion. Three board members voted to abstain.  

How is this vote counted?  The three board members who voted to abstain did vote.  How is these three abstain votes counted, yea, nay or....other.  Please help clarify this please. We need your professional opinion. 

To the extent that they are counted at all, abstentions are counted as "other." I would also note that it is not correct to state that "The three board members who voted to abstain did vote" or to describe these as "abstain votes."  An abstention, by definition, is not a vote. To "abstain" means to refrain from doing something, and in this context it means to refrain from voting.

In the general case, a motion requires a majority of the members present and voting for adoption. Provided that rule is controlling, a vote of 2-1 is sufficient for adoption of a motion.

In some cases, an assembly will have a rule prescribing a different threshold for adoption (e.g. a majority of members present, a majority of all members). In those circumstances, an abstention may have the same effect as a no vote, but that still does not mean that an abstention is a no vote.

See FAQ #6 for more information.

Edited January 19, 2023 at 03:16 PM by Josh Martin

[Guest Tina Marie]

Thank you for responding to my question regarding abstention. Below is our organization bylaws, copied verbatim regarding  quorum etc.

i

 (Article IIMeetings

Section 1. Annual Meeting: The Annual Meeting of the Club shall be held in conjunction with the Club's specialty show at a place, date, and hour designated by the Board of Directors. Notice of the annual membership meeting shall be published in The Herder or its successor. Should The Herder or its successor publication be delayed, the secretary shall mail a written notice of the meeting to each member at least thirty (30) days prior to the date of the meeting. A quorum shall constitute ten percent (10%) of the individual, household and life members in good standing.Guests may attend the annual meeting but may not speak or vote.Section 2. Special Club Meeting: Special Club meetings may be called by the President, or by a majority vote of the members of the Board, or by the Secretary upon receipt of a petition signed by ten percent (10%) of the individual, household and life members of the Club in good standing. Such meetings shall be held at such a place, date and hour as may be designated by the Board. The Secretary shall mail a written notice of such a meeting at least fourteen (14) days and not more than thirty (30) days prior to the meeting. The notice of the meeting shall state the purpose of the meeting and no other Club business may be transacted. A quorum is ten percent (10%) of the individual, household and life members in good standing.Section 3. Board Meeting: The first meeting of the Board shall be held within ten (10) days of the election. Other meetings of the Board shall be held, no less than quarterly, at such times and places as are designated by the President or by majority vote of the entire board. Notice of each meeting shall be sent by the Secretary to each Board member at least ten (10) days prior to the date of the meeting, unless heretofore agreed to by all Board members. The quorum for a Board meeting shall be a majority of the Board.Section 4. The Board may also conduct business (voting) by telephone conference call, mail, e-mail or provided it does not conflict with any other provision of these bylaws. When conducting business every Board member must agree to participate in the prescribed manner and be provided with the means to participate; the ability to verify that participants are Board members must be in place; and the ability exists to verify that Board members are “listening”. The Secretary must document that such procedures were in place. If any Board member, contrary to the record, attests that he/she was not the person participating or was not provided with the means to participate, the AKC may have no option but to nullify any action taken.Section 5. Proxy voting is prohibited.

this is copied verbatim. I look forward to your thoughts or expert opinion on this issue. Thank you,

Tina marie

[Josh Martin]

Based upon the facts presented, it continues to be my opinion that abstentions have no effect one way or the other, so a vote of 2-1 would be sufficient to adopt a motion. I see nothing in the quoted provisions of the bylaws suggesting otherwise.

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

I concur with Mr. Martin.

[Richard Brown]

On 1/19/2023 at 1:20 PM, Josh Martin said:

Based upon the facts presented, it continues to be my opinion that abstentions have no effect one way or the other, so a vote of 2-1 would be sufficient to adopt a motion. I see nothing in the quoted provisions of the bylaws suggesting otherwise.

Based on the additional information, I agree.

Edited January 19, 2023 at 07:36 PM by Richard Brown

[Gary Novosielski]

On 1/19/2023 at 2:15 AM, Guest Tina Marie said:

Hello,

My question pertains to abstain and how to count in a vote.

Recently, our board was presented with a motion on a controversial subject. Our board had six members in attendance and on board member absent.  Our bylaws state a majority of the board, 4,  constitute a quorum.   To pass a motion , a majority is needed   My question is on how to count a vote when a board member abstain on a vote on a motion.  

On this particular motion, six board members were present to vote.  Two board members voted to approve the motion. One board member voted to not approve the motion. Three board members voted to abstain.  

How is this vote counted?  The three board members who voted to abstain did vote.  How is these three abstain votes counted, yea, nay or....other.  Please help clarify this please. We need your professional opinion. 

Thank you  

Concurring with the other responses:

Abstentions are neither called for nor counted.  When one abstains, the voting process is what one has abstained from.

RONR (12th ed.) 4:35 says, in part:

The chair does not call for abstentions in taking a vote, since the number of members who respond to such a call is meaningless. To “abstain” means not to vote at all, and a member who makes no response if “abstentions” are called for abstains just as much as one who responds to that effect (see also 45:3).

[Guest Abstention]

Does an Abstention count towards Quorum? We need three Board Members for quorum 2 voted Yay 1 abstention. 

[Atul Kapur]

Quorum refers to the number of members present; whether they vote or abstain, they are present.

Sounds like you had three members present and a 2-0 vote.

[Dan Honemann]

On 9/7/2023 at 12:43 AM, Guest Abstention said:

Does an Abstention count towards Quorum? We need three Board Members for quorum 2 voted Yay 1 abstention. 

 

On 9/7/2023 at 1:25 AM, Atul Kapur said:

Quorum refers to the number of members present; whether they vote or abstain, they are present.

And this has been the rule since January 29, 1890.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 9/7/2023 at 12:43 AM, Guest Abstention said:

Does an Abstention count towards Quorum? We need three Board Members for quorum 2 voted Yay 1 abstention. 

The concept of quorum has nothing to do with how (or if) members vote.  Members who are physically present count toward quorum.  Quorum is required for business to be moved, debated, or disposed of in any of various ways other than voting.  

Yes votes, No votes, abstentions--none of those "count" toward quorum. Showing up counts.

Edited to add:

It strikes me as odd that you tacked this question on the end of a seven-month-old topic, apparently without reading it, since there were a number of relevant answers already there, all of them correct.

Edited September 7, 2023 at 02:06 PM by Gary Novosielski

[Joshua Katz]

I agree with the above answers, but would ask if the OP (well, relative OP) is talking about a situation where people are voting outside of a meeting.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 9/7/2023 at 8:17 PM, Joshua Katz said:

I agree with the above answers, but would ask if the OP (well, relative OP) is talking about a situation where people are voting outside of a meeting.

Well, outside of a meeting quorum is not a well-defined concept.

[Joshua Katz]

True. And yet I've seen bylaws that use it anyway.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 9/7/2023 at 8:42 PM, Joshua Katz said:

True. And yet I've seen bylaws that use it anyway.

"I have seen the Loch Ness Monster, and it was just a log." - Homer Simpson

[Guest Rick]

Example of the first system
The motion to oppose the planned hero’s burial for former President Ferdinand Marcos, who ran the country as a dictator.

Yes 8 votes
No 6 votes
Abstain 6 votes

Since 20 out of 24 senators were present, a majority vote of 11 was needed to adopt the resolution. But with only 8 senators voting in favor of it, the resolution was not adopted

Example of the second system
The motion to oppose the planned hero’s burial for former President Ferdinand Marcos, who ran the country as a dictator.

Yes 8 votes
No 6 votes
Abstain 6 votes

There are 20 total votes casted, 6 abstained so they do not count. With 14 valid votes casted, 7 is needed for a majority. The "Yes" vote got 8 which is a majority therefore the motion is passed.

Both the information is the same, and people voted the same, but why is there two different results one motion being passed and the other denied?

[Weldon Merritt]

On 5/7/2024 at 10:27 AM, Guest Rick said:

There are 20 total votes casted, 6 abstained so they do not count.

You are correct that the abstentions don't count, but they are not vites votes in the first place. So there were only 14 votes cast.

 

On 5/7/2024 at 10:27 AM, Guest Rick said:

Both the information is the same, and people voted the same, but why is there two different results one motion being passed and the other denied?

Because they use two different numbers as the denominator. In the first example. the denominator is the number of members present. In the second, it is the number of votes cast. Unless your bylaws or an applicable statute specify otherwise, the denominator is always the number of votes cast, not the number present, total membership, or any other number except votes cast.

Edited May 7, 2024 at 11:37 PM by Weldon Merritt
Correct a typo

[Rob Elsman]

On 5/7/2024 at 11:08 AM, Weldon Merritt said:

vites

No, they are not.

[Atul Kapur]

On 5/7/2024 at 12:08 PM, Weldon Merritt said:

abstentions don't count, but they are not vites in the first place.

 

On 5/7/2024 at 3:14 PM, Rob Elsman said:

No, they are not.

Which is what @Weldon Merritt said: they are "not vites" 😀

They are also not votes, so I'm not certain what you are disagreeing with.

[Weldon Merritt]

On 5/7/2024 at 3:02 PM, Atul Kapur said:

Which is what @Weldon Merritt said: they are "not vites" 😀

Oops! I obviously need to do a better job of checking my spelling!

[Guest Rick]

I am confused about two things. The amount needed to get pass the threshold and how to count abstentions.
1. Threshold, let's say it's always 50%+1. There are a total of 24 senators.
If 20 senators show up to vote, you only need 11 senators to vote yes for it to pass. However why in some cases when they vote, they need 13 senators to vote yes even if there are only say 20 senators that showed up. 
Does the threshold count by the number of senators that showed up to vote, or does the threshold count how many senators are there in total.

2. For abstention, does abstention count as voting, or does it not count?
For example if 24 senators show up to vote. 
Example 1:
12 senators voted yes, 11 senators abstained, 1 senator voted no.
The motion is approved 12-1 because there are more senators that voted yes than no. (More than 50%) at least.

Example 2:
12 senators voted yes, 11 senators abstained, 1 senator voted no
The motion needs to get 50%+1, so 13 senators out of 24 would need to vote yes. Since only 12 senators voted yes. The motion is denied. 
Does this also mean that abstention has the same effect as voting no.

 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 5/12/2024 at 12:55 AM, Guest Rick said:

I am confused about two things. The amount needed to get pass the threshold and how to count abstentions.
1. Threshold, let's say it's always 50%+1. There are a total of 24 senators.
If 20 senators show up to vote, you only need 11 senators to vote yes for it to pass. However why in some cases when they vote, they need 13 senators to vote yes even if there are only say 20 senators that showed up. 
Does the threshold count by the number of senators that showed up to vote, or does the threshold count how many senators are there in total.

2. For abstention, does abstention count as voting, or does it not count?
For example if 24 senators show up to vote. 
Example 1:
12 senators voted yes, 11 senators abstained, 1 senator voted no.
The motion is approved 12-1 because there are more senators that voted yes than no. (More than 50%) at least.

Example 2:
12 senators voted yes, 11 senators abstained, 1 senator voted no
The motion needs to get 50%+1, so 13 senators out of 24 would need to vote yes. Since only 12 senators voted yes. The motion is denied. 
Does this also mean that abstention has the same effect as voting no.

 

First of all, a majority vote is not 50%+1.  A majority vote is anything more than half.  As long as the number of Yes votes exceed the number of No votes, a majority vote is achieved.  To respond to your questions:

1.  It doesn't matter how many Senators there are or how many show up.  As long as a quorum is present, all that matters are the votes.  You can't tell the threshold in advance because it's a majority of those present and voting, and you don't know how many will vote.  Abstentions are not votes, they are not counted, and they do not count.  If more members vote Yes than No, a majority vote is achieved.

2. Abstentions are not votes.  Abstaining from voting means not voting.   A person who states that they abstain has abstained, but a person who says nothing has also abstained.  If they were present but did not vote, they abstained. 

Example 1:   12 Yes; 1 No.    The motion is approved.

Example 2:   12 Yes; 1 No.    The motion is approved.