Board Members Voting

[Oezuwn]

At a Special Meeting, do the Board Members vote on issues at the meeting?  Does the President, who’s presiding, refrain from voting unless there’s a tie from the owners/members?  If so, he/she votes yes or no, is that correct?  Thanks! 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 4/22/2024 at 7:43 PM, Oezuwn said:

At a Special Meeting, do the Board Members vote on issues at the meeting?  Does the President, who’s presiding, refrain from voting unless there’s a tie from the owners/members?  If so, he/she votes yes or no, is that correct?  Thanks! 

Assuming this is a board meeting, then, yes, board members vote, whether this is a regular or special meeting.   The difference is that at a special meeting, only business that was described in the call of the meeting is in order.  

Under small board rules the president is not restricted from voting, as would be the case in a larger assembly.  In large assemblies the presiding officer would not vote except in a situation where that one vote would make a difference.  This goes well beyond just "in case of a tie".  See FAQ #1.

[Atul Kapur]

If, on the other hand, you are referring to a special meeting of the membership, then the members of the board, assuming that they are also members of the association, have the same rights as any other member of the association.

That is, a board member does not gain or lose any of their membership rights at a membership meeting because they are also members of the board.

 

Mr. Novosielski's note about the limits of what can be considered at a special meeting,

On 4/29/2024 at 3:56 AM, Gary Novosielski said:

only business that was described in the call of the meeting

also applies for special meetings of the membership.

 

On 4/23/2024 at 1:43 AM, Oezuwn said:

Does the President, who’s presiding, refrain from voting unless there’s a tie from the owners/members?

Not quite. The president only votes if their vote would change the outcome. So if it's a tie (which is not a majority so would mean the motion is defeated), the chair could vote in favour to make the motion pass.

Alternatively, if there is one more vote in favour than opposed, the chair can vote No to create a tie and defeat the motion.

Edited April 29, 2024 at 09:46 AM by Atul Kapur

[Rob Elsman]

At a special meeting of what?

[Oezuwn]

On 4/29/2024 at 6:42 AM, Rob Elsman said:

At a special meeting of what?

Thank you.  A Special Meeting of the condo association.  Ours is apathetic so the majority of those that will attend will be the grillers who want to keep their grills no matter what.

[Oezuwn]

On 4/29/2024 at 5:46 AM, Atul Kapur said:

If, on the other hand, you are referring to a special meeting of the membership, then the members of the board, assuming that they are also members of the association, have the same rights as any other member of the association.

That is, a board member does not gain or lose any of their membership rights at a membership meeting because they are also members of the board.

 

Mr. Novosielski's note about the limits of what can be considered at a special meeting,

also applies for special meetings of the membership.

 

Not quite. The president only votes if their vote would change the outcome. So if it's a tie (which is not a majority so would mean the motion is defeated), the chair could vote in favour to make the motion pass.

Alternatively, if there is one more vote in favour than opposed, the chair can vote No to create a tie and defeat the motion.

Thank you.  This is a Special Meeting of the membership. How would the presiding president know whether to vote or not until the end when all votes are tallied?  She would have to wait till the end, right, either simply add her vote like everyone else in the room or wait to the end of tallying the votes & then add her vote?  If she votes at the beginning or while the votes are in process & the count (with her vote) is tied, then, I understand that the motion would fail. What do you advise the president to do?  Wait till the end to vote or it doesn’t matter?

[Joshua Katz]

If the vote is by ballot, the President votes along with everyone else.

[Richard Brown]

On 5/2/2024 at 10:58 AM, Oezuwn said:

How would the presiding president know whether to vote or not until the end when all votes are tallied?

If the vote is by ballot, the president is not restricted from voting and casts his or her ballot along with everyone else.  It is when the vote is by other means such as a standing counted vote, raising hands, or roll call that the president does not vote unless his vote will affect the outcome. In those cases, he withholds his vote until it is known that it can affect the outcome, such as by breaking a tie, creating a tie, making two-thirds, or breaking two-thirds.

[Rob Elsman]

Thank you for the additional information.  Members of the board who are members of the general membership assembly may, and should, certainly vote on business that comes before the general membership assembly.  If the board has members who are not members of the general membership assembly, these may not vote at meetings of the general membership assembly.

It sounds from the information provided that the grillers are likely to prevail, but not all is lost.  Those of you who wish to pursue this further might want to consider lobbying the local or state legislative bodies to see if the fire code could be made mandatory for multi-unit residences.  Were such an effort successful, the grillers would have to comply.  I know.  Years ago, I called the fire department to enforce my city's fire code against my grilling neighbor in an apartment complex.  Firefighters arrived; sprayed chemical foam on my neighbor's grilling steaks, ruining them; and issued a citation for several hundred dollars.  Those were expensive steaks.  Some have to learn the hard way, I guess. 🙂

[Oezuwn]

On 5/2/2024 at 1:23 PM, Rob Elsman said:

Thank you for the additional information.  Members of the board who are members of the general membership assembly may, and should, certainly vote on business that comes before the general membership assembly.  If the board has members who are not members of the general membership assembly, these may not vote at meetings of the general membership assembly.

It sounds from the information provided that the grillers are likely to prevail, but not all is lost.  Those of you who wish to pursue this further might want to consider lobbying the local or state legislative bodies to see if the fire code could be made mandatory for multi-unit residences.  Were such an effort successful, the grillers would have to comply.  I know.  Years ago, I called the fire department to enforce my city's fire code against my grilling neighbor in an apartment complex.  Firefighters arrived; sprayed chemical foam on my neighbor's grilling steaks, ruining them; and issued a citation for several hundred dollars.  Those were expensive steaks.  Some have to learn the hard way, I guess. 🙂

Oh, isn’t that something!  The Board are members of the association.  Thanks for the info on lobbying the state legislative bodies. At least, there’s another avenue to pursue if the grillers win to continue grilling.

[Oezuwn]

On 5/2/2024 at 12:07 PM, Richard Brown said:

If the vote is by ballot, the president is not restricted from voting and casts his or her ballot along with everyone else.  It is when the vote is by other means such as a standing counted vote, raising hands, or roll call that the president does not vote unless his vote will affect the outcome. In those cases, he withholds his vote until it is known that it can affect the outcome, such as by breaking a tie, creating a tie, making two-thirds, or breaking two-thirds.

The vote would occur at a Special Meeting. All Board members & owners who are interested in being there, would vote. Usually, at our Special Meetings, we vote by standing or raised hands so the latter part of your comments would apply.  Thank you so much!

[Joshua Katz]

On 5/2/2024 at 10:23 AM, Rob Elsman said:

Those of you who wish to pursue this further might want to consider lobbying the local or state legislative bodies to see if the fire code could be made mandatory for multi-unit residences. 

Sure, they could lobby the legislature to bring down the force of the state on their neighbors for the crime of enjoying a barbeque. I agree that is an option. Or they could ask what it would cost to have that clause taken out of their insurance contract. Or they could lobby the state legislature to require insurers not to bar grills. Lots of options here. 

[Josh Martin]

On 4/22/2024 at 6:43 PM, Oezuwn said:

At a Special Meeting, do the Board Members vote on issues at the meeting?

On 5/2/2024 at 10:50 AM, Oezuwn said:

A Special Meeting of the condo association.

Since I understand that this is a meeting of the association, all members of the association may vote. That would include (but not be limited to) the board members, assuming the board members are members of the association.

On 4/22/2024 at 6:43 PM, Oezuwn said:

 Does the President, who’s presiding, refrain from voting unless there’s a tie from the owners/members?

It's slightly more complicated. The President refrains from voting unless the President's vote would affect the result - which could include, but is not necessarily limited to, a tie vote. I will assume that only a majority vote is required for this motion.

If the vote is tied, and the President wishes to vote in favor, the President may vote. There would be no need for the President to vote against the motion, because a tie vote defeats a motion.

On the other hand, if there is a bare majority (18 votes to 17 votes, for example), the President could vote in the negative to create a tie and defeat the motion.

The President may also vote along with other members if the vote is taken by ballot. The reason the President waits is in order to maintain the appearance of impartiality. In a secret ballot, that's not a concern.

On 5/2/2024 at 10:50 AM, Oezuwn said:

Ours is apathetic so the majority of those that will attend will be the grillers who want to keep their grills no matter what.

Democracy is, in grilling and other matters, determined by those who show up.

On 5/2/2024 at 10:58 AM, Oezuwn said:

How would the presiding president know whether to vote or not until the end when all votes are tallied?  She would have to wait till the end, right, either simply add her vote like everyone else in the room or wait to the end of tallying the votes & then add her vote?  If she votes at the beginning or while the votes are in process & the count (with her vote) is tied, then, I understand that the motion would fail. What do you advise the president to do?  Wait till the end to vote or it doesn’t matter?

If the vote is not taken by ballot, the President would wait until the end, and would then vote only if the President's vote would affect the result.

If the vote is taken by ballot, the President would vote along with everyone else.

[Shmuel Gerber]

On 5/2/2024 at 2:02 PM, Joshua Katz said:

Sure, they could lobby the legislature to bring down the force of the state on their neighbors for the crime of enjoying a barbeque.

That would be uncivil, as the proper spelling of the term is "barbecue."

[Rob Elsman]

On 5/2/2024 at 2:27 PM, Shmuel Gerber said:

barbecue

Only east of the Hudson River.  It is regularly "barbeque" or "BBQ" in many parts of the country, including mine.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 5/2/2024 at 3:27 PM, Shmuel Gerber said:

That would be uncivil, as the proper spelling of the term is "barbecue."

Surely you're not suggesting that it is a crime to enjoy something once it has been misspelled.

[Shmuel Gerber]

On 5/2/2024 at 3:31 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Surely you're not suggesting that it is a crime to enjoy something once it has been misspelled.

Depends on exactly what's at steak.

[Oezuwn]

On 5/2/2024 at 2:02 PM, Joshua Katz said:

Sure, they could lobby the legislature to bring down the force of the state on their neighbors for the crime of enjoying a barbeque. I agree that is an option. Or they could ask what it would cost to have that clause taken out of their insurance contract. Or they could lobby the state legislature to require insurers not to bar grills. Lots of options here. 

Mr. Katz,    The majority of the association, who are non-grillers, are concerned about live flames from their griller neighbors, accidentally setting nearby bushes, clapboards & dried needles/acorns on fire.  Our back decks are shared decks & walls.  They’re not interested in punishing grillers for their crime of enjoying barbecues.  The non-grillers just want to maintain their choice of safety    from being put in the hands of their griller neighbors.  If the National Fire Protection Association has made codes to follow, it’s b/c enough of fires have occurred in these settings & yet, in RI, it’s still not mandatory.  However, there are some other options, yes.

[Josh Martin]

On 5/2/2024 at 3:35 PM, Oezuwn said:

Mr. Katz,    The majority of the association, who are non-grillers, are concerned about live flames from their griller neighbors, accidentally setting nearby bushes, clapboards & dried needles/acorns on fire.  Our back decks are shared decks & walls.  They’re not interested in punishing grillers for their crime of enjoying barbecues.  The non-grillers just want to maintain their choice of safety    from being put in the hands of their griller neighbors.  If the National Fire Protection Association has made codes to follow, it’s b/c enough of fires have occurred in these settings & yet, in RI, it’s still not mandatory.  However, there are some other options, yes.

Well, if the majority of the association is so concerned about these issues, then I would suggest they show up to the meetings so they can outvote the "grillers," and then that should settle that.

[Richard Brown]

On 5/2/2024 at 5:13 PM, Josh Martin said:

Well, if the majority of the association is so concerned about these issues, then I would suggest they show up to the meetings so they can outvote the "grillers," and then that should settle that.

I agree.  That's what all of this seems to boil down to, at least from a parliamentary perspective. I think that earlier we clarified when the chair may vote.

[Rob Elsman]

It doesn't seem to be a sizzling hot topic with the non-grillers, does it?

[Oezuwn]

On 5/2/2024 at 10:26 PM, Rob Elsman said:

It doesn't seem to be a sizzling hot topic with the non-grillers, does it?

That is the fact, sir.  I’ve said that one could shoot somebody in the face & they wouldn’t complain (if they had a mouth to complain with)!  Non-grillers care but they’re more intimidated from ‘screamy’ people (the grillers).  They’ve learned to shut up & suppress their choice of safety for 40 years & just get along with their neighbor grillers.  Now’s the chance, while this is the topic.  I don’t hold much hope that they’ll show up & that’s the sad part.  As Mr. Martin, above, said, "Democracy is, in grilling and other matters, determined by those who show up”.    Absolutely true!!