Nominations

[Angie N]

We have staggering elections and we have an upcoming election where the office of president is open. We received the slate amd our vice president is on the slate.  His term as vice president is not up. Can he do that? Our Bylaws do not address this scenario and it doesn't seem right. He hasn't resigned as vice president either.  Please help me understand what is in order here. Thank you!

[Rob Elsman]

It is proper for a sitting vice president to stand for election as president. In the event that he wins, he is presumed to have resigned his office as vice president.

[Angie N]

On 4/26/2024 at 6:54 PM, Rob Elsman said:

It is proper for a sitting vice president to stand for election as president. In the event that he wins, he is presumed to have resigned his office as vice president.

Thank you!  So this will create a new vacancy for vice president.  Is there a reference in RONR that talks about this being proper that you can share?  

[Rob Elsman]

It would promote any other vice presidents whose terms are not expired, and the vacancy would occur for the lowest-ranking one. Of course, if their is just one vice president, there would be a vacancy for that office.

[Angie N]

On 4/26/2024 at 11:13 PM, Rob Elsman said:

It would promote any other vice presidents whose terms are not expired, and the vacancy would occur for the lowest-ranking one. Of course, if their is just one vice president, there would be a vacancy for that office.

I think I found the information I was looking for. Our vice president did serve more than half of his term so he has completed his term in office. I believe that makes him eligible to run for president.  Our Bylaws does have how to full vacancies. We wouldn't promote Vice presidents. Thanks again for the response. 

[Joshua Katz]

On 4/27/2024 at 7:06 AM, Angie N said:

I think I found the information I was looking for. Our vice president did serve more than half of his term so he has completed his term in office. I believe that makes him eligible to run for president.  Our Bylaws does have how to full vacancies. We wouldn't promote Vice presidents. Thanks again for the response. 

There was nothing in the original question about needing to serve as VP before becoming President, and we were told there was nothing relevant in the bylaws. Are you now saying there is such a rule?

[Weldon Merritt]

On 4/27/2024 at 9:06 AM, Angie N said:

Our vice president did serve more than half of his term so he has completed his term in office. I

Technically, he has not "completed his term in office." He just gets credit for a full term, for any purpose where that is relevant.

On 4/27/2024 at 9:06 AM, Angie N said:

I believe that makes him eligible to run for president. 

Unless your bylaws have a requirement that a member complete a full term as VP in order t0 run for president, he is eligible to run whether or not he has completed it.

On 4/27/2024 at 9:19 AM, Joshua Katz said:

Our Bylaws does have how to full vacancies.

Then follow them.

On 4/27/2024 at 9:06 AM, Angie N said:

We wouldn't promote Vice presidents.  

Do you mean that you don't have multiple VPs, or you do but don't intend to move them up? If the former, then of course there would be none to move up. But of the latter, and your bylaws don't specifically provide otherwise, the "promotion" is automatic. No action by the assembly is necessary or proper.

[Angie N]

On 4/27/2024 at 10:19 AM, Joshua Katz said:

There was nothing in the original question about needing to serve as VP before becoming President, and we were told there was nothing relevant in the bylaws. Are you now saying there is such a rule?

You are correct! I did not say that it is a rule nor am I saying it now. I was reading RONR and looking for a reference and I think 56:31 addresses his eligibility.  

[Angie N]

On 4/27/2024 at 10:59 AM, Weldon Merritt said:

Technically, he has not "completed his term in office." He just gets credit for a full term, for any purpose where that is relevant.

Unless your bylaws have a requirement that a member complete a full term as VP in order t0 run for president, he is eligible to run whether or not he has completed it.

Then follow them.

Do you mean that you don't have multiple VPs, or you do but don't intend to move them up? If the former, then of course there would be none to move up. But of the latter, and your bylaws don't specifically provide otherwise, the "promotion" is automatic. No action by the assembly is necessary or proper.

Mr. Welton your snarky comment is not necessary and unwelcomed. We will follow our bylaws. I just was trying to point out to Mr. Katz that we do have rules on how to fill vacancies in our Bylaws and it differs from what he mentioned. I thought this platform was a resource to seek some guidance.  I am here to learn.

[Joshua Katz]

On 4/27/2024 at 8:29 AM, Angie N said:

You are correct! I did not say that it is a rule nor am I saying it now. I was reading RONR and looking for a reference and I think 56:31 addresses his eligibility.  

Then I don't follow. RONR does not require a term as VP before becoming President, so the length of time he has served as VP does not matter regarding his eligibility to be President unless your rules require a term. (It may not be relevant here, but I'm not convinced that, if the bylaws did require a term as VP, half a term would suffice.) 

A person, absent rules to the contrary, can run for any position while holding any other position, even if the offices are incompatible. If they are incompatible, of course, if he wins the one he runs for, he'd need to pick one. VP and President seem incompatible, so a VP who runs for President during an unexpired VP term will need to resign from the vice-presidency, but he could do so after serving a single day if the opportunity presented itself. He does not need to serve half a term.

[Angie N]

On 4/27/2024 at 11:47 AM, Joshua Katz said:

Then I don't follow. RONR does not require a term as VP before becoming President, so the length of time he has served as VP does not matter regarding his eligibility to be President unless your rules require a term. (It may not be relevant here, but I'm not convinced that, if the bylaws did require a term as VP, half a term would suffice.) 

A person, absent rules to the contrary, can run for any position while holding any other position, even if the offices are incompatible. If they are incompatible, of course, if he wins the one he runs for, he'd need to pick one. VP and President seem incompatible, so a VP who runs for President during an unexpired VP term will need to resign from the vice-presidency, but he could do so after serving a single day if the opportunity presented itself. He does not need to serve half a term.

Sorry I am not clear. Our bylaws say each office serves 2 years. Our VP has not served 2 years but has served more than half his term. My interpretation of RONR 56:31 was that he technically completely his term and is eligible.  I do understand what you are saying though that RONR doesn't require a length of time and he could run at any time.  

[Angie N]

On 4/27/2024 at 11:34 AM, Angie N said:

Mr. Welton your snarky comment is not necessary and unwelcomed. We will follow our bylaws. I just was trying to point out to Mr. Katz that we do have rules on how to fill vacancies in our Bylaws and it differs from what he mentioned. I thought this platform was a resource to seek some guidance.  I am here to learn.

Correction: Mr. Elsman not Mr. Katz

[Drake Savory]

On 4/27/2024 at 10:03 AM, Angie N said:

Our bylaws say each office serves 2 years.

Unless your bylaws say an officer cannot resign or die in office then it doesn't require them to fulfill the full 2 years. I highly doubt yours do but we've seen weird rules in bylaws before.  Unless there is a requirement to serve a full term as Vice-President, there are no restrictions.  He could serve 1 minute as VP then run.

What 56:31 is referring to is that if you have term-limits then serving less than half of the term does not count for the limit for the person filling a vacancy.  Let's take your case and let's assume you have term-limits.  VP runs for President and wins.  The office of VP is filled immediately with 13 months (more than half of two years) to go in the term.  That would count against the new VP as a term towards their limit.  If on the other hand they had 11 months (less than half of two years) to go in the term, that would not count towards their term limit.

 

On 4/27/2024 at 9:34 AM, Angie N said:

Mr. Welton your snarky comment is not necessary and unwelcomed. We will follow our bylaws.

He is not being snarky.  We all have seen cases, both in this forum and in real-life, of organizations not following their bylaws.  Sometimes it is out of ignorance and sometimes it is for the sake of convenience.  I don't want to speak for him but I took it as you saying you have rules in place outside of RONR to fill vacancies and him saying there ya go; just follow those rules.

Edited April 27, 2024 at 04:21 PM by Drake Savory

[Rob Elsman]

"The Question and Answer Forums are provided to allow an open exchange of views relevant to specific questions of parliamentary procedure under Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised."

I think we would all do better to keep this in mind.

[Angie N]

On 4/27/2024 at 12:18 PM, Drake Savory said:

Unless your bylaws say an officer cannot resign or die in office then it doesn't require them to fulfill the full 2 years. I highly doubt yours do but we've seen weird rules in bylaws before.  Unless there is a requirement to serve a full term as Vice-President, there are no restrictions.  He could serve 1 minute as VP then run.

What 56:31 is referring to is that if you have term-limits then serving less than half of the term does not count for the limit for the person filling a vacancy.  Let's take your case and let's assume you have term-limits.  VP runs for President and wins.  The office of VP is filled immediately with 13 months (more than half of two years) to go in the term.  That would count against the new VP as a term towards their limit.  If on the other hand they had 11 months (less than half of two years) to go in the term, that would not count towards their term limit.

 

He is not being snarky.  We all have seen cases, both in this forum and in real-life, of organizations not following their bylaws.  Sometimes it is out of ignorance and sometimes it is for the sake of convenience.  I don't want to speak for him but I took it as you saying you have rules in place outside of RONR to fill vacancies and him saying there ya go; just follow those rules.

Super helpful! Thank you so much!

[Weldon Merritt]

On 4/27/2024 at 10:34 AM, Angie N said:

Mr. Welton your snarky comment is not necessary and unwelcomed.

I am not "Mr. Welton," but since I am the only responder whose name is similar, I assume this refers to me.

On 4/27/2024 at 11:18 AM, Drake Savory said:

He is not being snarky. 

Thank you. I didn't think that I was, and it certainly was not my intent. It was an honest effort to help Angie N understand the relevant rules. 

On 4/27/2024 at 11:18 AM, Drake Savory said:

I took it as you saying you have rules in place outside of RONR to fill vacancies and him saying there ya go; just follow those rules.

Exactly!

[Gary Novosielski]

On 4/27/2024 at 12:03 PM, Angie N said:

Sorry I am not clear. Our bylaws say each office serves 2 years. Our VP has not served 2 years but has served more than half his term. My interpretation of RONR 56:31 was that he technically completely his term and is eligible.  I do understand what you are saying though that RONR doesn't require a length of time and he could run at any time.  

The rule about serving half a term or more applies to term limits.  If the VP had only served for a week that would not affect the eligibility to run for another office.

[Josh Martin]

On 4/26/2024 at 3:50 PM, Angie N said:

We have staggering elections and we have an upcoming election where the office of president is open. We received the slate amd our vice president is on the slate.  His term as vice president is not up. Can he do that?

Yes, the Vice President is free to run for the office of President. Indeed, it's pretty common for the Vice President to run for the office of President.

The fact that the Vice President's term of office has not expired does not prevent him from running for President. It simply means that, if he is elected, the assembly will then need to elect a new Vice President. (Although as it seems there are multiple Vice Presidents, which Vice President will be elected may be a matter that is in some question.)

In the long run, the organization might wish to amend its bylaws so that the President and Vice President are elected at the same time, in order to avoid this situation in the future. The Vice President running for President is fairly common in most organizations, so I rather doubt this is the last time this situation will arise.

On 4/26/2024 at 3:50 PM, Angie N said:

Our Bylaws do not address this scenario and it doesn't seem right. He hasn't resigned as vice president either. 

There is no need for him to resign as Vice President unless and until he wins. Nothing in RONR requires members to give up their current position simply to run for a different position.

On 4/26/2024 at 7:04 PM, Angie N said:

Thank you!  So this will create a new vacancy for vice president.  Is there a reference in RONR that talks about this being proper that you can share?  

I'm not aware of anything in RONR explicitly saying you can do this. But there's certainly nothing in RONR saying you can't.

On 4/27/2024 at 9:06 AM, Angie N said:

Our Bylaws does have how to full vacancies. We wouldn't promote Vice presidents.

That may or may not be correct, but I lack sufficient facts concerning your society's rules on this matter to say with certainty at this time whether Vice Presidents would be promoted.

It would also seem to me that the assembly is free to elect a person to the office of whatever Vice President position will be vacant, even if this task is ordinarily delegated to some other body, since the vacancy will arise at the same time as the society's regular elections.

"In case of the president's resignation, death, or removal, the vice-president automatically becomes president for the remainder of the term, unless the bylaws expressly provide otherwise for filling a vacancy in the office of president (see also 56:32).

Some societies elect several vice-presidents in an order of precedence—first, second, third, and so on—in which case the highest-ranking one present has the duty of serving in place of the president when needed. In case of the president's resignation, death, or removal, the first vice-president then automatically becomes president (unless, as indicated above, the bylaws expressly provide otherwise for the office of president). Likewise, in case of any vice-president's resignation, death, or removal, or upon his or her automatic promotion to a higher office, the next-highest-ranking vice-president, if there is one, is automatically promoted (unless the bylaws expressly provide otherwise). Thus, for example, if the first vice-president resigns, the second vice-president becomes first vice-president, the third vice-president becomes second vice-president, and so on, with the vacancy to be filled occurring in the lowest-ranking vice-presidency. A vice-president cannot decline to take the higher office to which he has been automatically promoted; if unable or unwilling to carry out the duties of the new office, his only recourse is then to submit his resignation, upon the acceptance of which he will no longer hold either office.

Sometimes the bylaws provide that the different vice-presidents shall have administrative charge of different departments. In many such cases, it is inadvisable for the vice-presidents to have to change their duties whenever a vacancy occurs among them, and the bylaws should therefore also provide a method for filling vacancies that expressly applies to the offices of president and all vice-presidents." RONR (12th ed.) 47:28-30, emphasis added

On 4/27/2024 at 9:06 AM, Angie N said:

I think I found the information I was looking for. Our vice president did serve more than half of his term so he has completed his term in office. I believe that makes him eligible to run for president.

The quote you are looking at has nothing to do with the current situation. It has to deal with how term limits apply. When the rule in question says that "an officer who has served more than half a term in an office is considered to have served a full term," that applies solely with regard to how to apply rules relating to term limits.

"The bylaws may contain a provision that “No person shall be eligible to serve _______ consecutive terms in the same office.” In filling vacancies for unexpired terms, an officer who has served more than half a term in an office is considered to have served a full term. As stated in 46:46–47, the term of office begins as soon as the officer is elected, unless the bylaws establish a different time (see also 56:27)." RONR (12th ed.) 47:4

"Since a reasonable rotation in office is desirable in almost all organizations, a section of this article may well provide that “No person shall be eligible to serve… consecutive terms [specifying the number] in the same office.” For purposes of determining eligibility to continue in office under such a provision, an officer who has served more than half a term is considered to have served a full term in that office." RONR (12th ed.) 56:31

To be clear:

• The Vice President has not completed his term in office (except for purposes of any rules in your bylaws pertaining to term limits).
• Nonetheless, the Vice President is eligible to be run for President.
• The Vice President would be eligible to run for President even if he had completed less than half of his term.

Edited April 29, 2024 at 03:57 PM by Josh Martin