elections

[Guest Amye]

I am a member of a fire company auxiliary. We have adopted Roberts Rules and during our recent election, we have a tie for President. The current secretary voted for herself causing the tie. Is it true that the Secretary cannot vote in an election? TIA 

[Joshua Katz]

2 minutes ago, Guest Amye said:

Is it true that the Secretary cannot vote in an election?

No, so long as the Secretary is a member, the Secretary may vote in an election.  In the event of a tie election, a second ballot should be held, with the same candidates, then a third, etc. until someone has a majority.

[amcompitello]

Thanks. What happens if the results are the same each time? I’m not sure we will ever reach a result. 

[George Mervosh]

8 minutes ago, amcompitello said:

Thanks. What happens if the results are the same each time? I’m not sure we will ever reach a result. 

The assembly can re-open nominations in hopes of finding a compromise candidate and if you're voting by ballot (which I'm not sure you are given your opening statement) make sure there's a space for write-ins.  It wouldn't be the first time a write-in candidate won.  But you must keep trying to complete this election.  

[Josh Martin]

1 hour ago, amcompitello said:

Thanks. What happens if the results are the same each time? I’m not sure we will ever reach a result. 

I have seen elections where members thought the same thing, but they started to change their minds around 2 AM or so.

[George Mervosh]

2 minutes ago, Josh Martin said:

I have seen elections where members thought the same thing, but they started to change their minds around 2 AM or so.

At the 2FP that's last call and yeah, we'd actually elect Mickey Mouse at that time of night.   

[amcompitello]

Thanks for the input. 

[jstackpo]

3 hours ago, George Mervosh said:

At the 2FP that's last call and yeah, we'd actually elect Mickey Mouse at that time of night.   

"2FP"?

[Gary Novosielski]

On 12/4/2017 at 10:21 AM, amcompitello said:

Thanks. What happens if the results are the same each time? I’m not sure we will ever reach a result. 

You keep voting until someone falls asleep, goes home, or passes away, thereby changing the results. 

Or, you can move to reopen nominations and propose a compromise candidate. If you have more than two candidates, be sure to note that in order to be elected a candidate must receive a majority of the votes, i.e., more than all other candidates combined. If not, keep voting.

If I'm not mistaken, there have been cases where well over 100 ballots were required to reach a decision.

[Josh Martin]

2 hours ago, Gary Novosielski said:

If I'm not mistaken, there have been cases where well over 100 ballots were required to reach a decision.

One notable example is the 1924 election for the Democratic nominee for President of the United States, which took 103 ballots and 16 days.

Elections for the Pope have often been even more extreme.

[Rev Ed]

On 12/5/2017 at 11:09 AM, Gary Novosielski said:

You keep voting until someone falls asleep, goes home, or passes away, thereby changing the results. 

Or, you can move to reopen nominations and propose a compromise candidate. If you have more than two candidates, be sure to note that in order to be elected a candidate must receive a majority of the votes, i.e., more than all other candidates combined. If not, keep voting.

If I'm not mistaken, there have been cases where well over 100 ballots were required to reach a decision.

And while I do not normally agree with it, sometimes this is why organizations will allow for a plurality vote or to drop the lowest candidate before the next round of balloting.

For one active organization, I did suggest ranked ballots for elections where there were more than two candidates per position.  It might not have been ideal, but it resulted in a majority vote, and did not take all night.  It was easier passing the By-law amendments, than holding an election in this organization.

[Richard Brown]

26 minutes ago, Rev Ed said:

 . . . .For one active organization, I did suggest ranked ballots for elections where there were more than two candidates per position.  It might not have been ideal, but it resulted in a majority vote, and did not take all night.  It was easier passing the By-law amendments, than holding an election in this organization.

1

Ranked Ballots?  What exactly is that?   That is a term that does not appear in RONR.  Are you perhaps talking about preferential voting?  You might keep in mind that RONR prohibits preferential voting unless specifically authorized in the bylaws. 

As to using plurality voting, that also must be authorized in the bylaws. 

As to dropping the candidate with the fewest number of votes for the next round of balloting, RONR prohibits that, but an organization can adopt a special rule of order requiring it or can suspend the rules to permit the dropping of the candidate with the fewest number of votes. (page 441, text and footnote).  However, the candidates may agree among themselves that the one with the fewest votes will voluntarily withdraw or that if there is a tie, they will decide by lot that one of them will withdraw.   There are caveats that must be kept in mind though, such as the fact that only a bylaws provision can make a candidate who has withdrawn ineligible to serve if elected, which is something that can happen with write in ballots.

[Rev Ed]

On 12/6/2017 at 12:50 PM, Richard Brown said:

Ranked Ballots?  What exactly is that?   That is a term that does not appear in RONR.  Are you perhaps talking about preferential voting?  You might keep in mind that RONR prohibits preferential voting unless specifically authorized in the bylaws. 

As to using plurality voting, that also must be authorized in the bylaws.

Yes, ranked ballots are the same as preferential ballots. 

And yes, I am aware that either option must be placed into the By-laws.  The one organization did so.

[jstackpo]

13 minutes ago, Rev Ed said:

Yes, ranked ballots are the same as preferential ballots.

Well, to get precise, "ranked ballots" (or ranked choices on a ballot) are just a way of listing your first, second, third &c. choice.

How those ballots are tabulated varies all over the lot from Borda Count (weighing the rankings with four, three, two, one, zero points) through preferential voting where you discard the lowest "first-choice" ballots and assign them to the second choice, to simple "first choice" counts and the rest are ignored.  (In that last case you don't bother to write down anything but your first choice even though you may have ranked the choices in your head.)

Lots of controversy as to the best (or least worst) system and how to really figure out the will of the people. It ain't easy with more than two candidates.

[Joshua Katz]

23 minutes ago, jstackpo said:

Lots of controversy as to the best (or least worst) system and how to really figure out the will of the people. It ain't easy with more than two candidates.

Well, there's at least one certainty: if you accept the usual set of fairness criteria (I'm not so sure) then there's no point in trying to really figure out the will of the people.

[SaintCad]

I'm curious why the OP thinks the Secretary can't vote (for themselves).