Limits on Speech in a Committee

[Tomm]

So at todays committee meeting one of the first things the chair did was to say I'm only allowing a member to speak twice for three minutes on each particular item.

Just to confirm before I open my mouth to point out the infractions to the chair, I would like to confirm the following:

First of all, committees function under the rules for small boards where there is no limit.

Second. The parent organization doesn't have such a rule so the committee can't make its own rule.

Third. The chair would need to first move to suspend the rules prior to setting different limits, and the assembly is required to vote.

Thanks

 

[J. J.]

I'm not sure that this rule could be suspended.  Authorization would have to be given by the parent body. 

[George Mervosh]

On 3/22/2024 at 9:41 AM, J. J. said:

I'm not sure that this rule could be suspended.  Authorization would have to be given by the parent body. 

I completely agree that this rule is not suspendable -  " In order that there may be no interference with the assembly's having the benefit of its committees' matured judgment, motions to close or limit debate (15, 16) are not allowed in committees."  RONR (12th ed.), 50:25 and n7,

[Rob Elsman]

The committee chairman exceeded the scope of his authority and is pretty bossy, too.

[Josh Martin]

On 3/21/2024 at 7:43 PM, Tomm said:

First of all, committees function under the rules for small boards where there is no limit.

This is mostly correct. Under the small board rules, members may still only speak up to ten minutes per speech, but may make an unlimited number of speeches.

Further, even to the extent the committee was not using the rules for committees and small boards, the default rule is two speeches of ten minutes each, not three minutes each.

On 3/21/2024 at 7:43 PM, Tomm said:

Second. The parent organization doesn't have such a rule so the committee can't make its own rule.

I would say "parent assembly" rather than "parent organization," but yes.

On 3/21/2024 at 7:43 PM, Tomm said:

Third. The chair would need to first move to suspend the rules prior to setting different limits, and the assembly is required to vote.

I'm somewhat unclear as to whether you're referring to the committee setting different limits or the parent assembly setting different limits.

If you're referring to the committee, the committee does not have the authority to suspend this rule.

If you're referring to the parent assembly, the assembly would not "suspend the rules," but rather, would adopt a rule on this subject. What exactly is required for this will depend upon how the committee was established. A special rule of order would certainly be sufficient, but a standing rule or instructions to the committee would suffice if the committee was created by a standing rule or by a motion to Commit or Refer.

[Tomm]

On 3/22/2024 at 10:10 AM, Josh Martin said:

Under the small board rules, members may still only speak up to ten minutes per speech,

It's unclear to me where the 10 minute rule applies specifically to rules in small boards because I don't find it within the list of 7 laxed rules? Something should be stated in Item 3 if that were to be a limiting factor.

43:8 Clearly limits the time to 10 minutes but it also allows for the motion to Extend Limits of Debate, which is a motion not allowed within a committee, which is implying to me that the 10 minute rule stated in 43:8 does not apply in rules for small boards but only larger assemblies?

 

 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 3/22/2024 at 1:33 PM, Tomm said:

It's unclear to me where the 10 minute rule applies specifically to rules in small boards because I don't find it within the list of 7 laxed rules? Something should be stated in Item 3 if that were to be a limiting factor.

Quite the opposite.  The fact that the length of speeches is not mentioned in the 7 items, not even in item 3, indicates that this rule is not relaxed under Small Board Rules.  It would only need to be mentioned if it was being changed from the standard ten minutes.

[Josh Martin]

On 3/22/2024 at 12:33 PM, Tomm said:

It's unclear to me where the 10 minute rule applies specifically to rules in small boards because I don't find it within the list of 7 laxed rules? Something should be stated in Item 3 if that were to be a limiting factor.

The rule on this matter provides as follows: "There is no limit to the number of times a member can speak to a debatable question."

Since the rule specifically says "number of times," this suggest to me that members are still limited to ten minutes per speech, but members can make an unlimited number of speeches.

On 3/22/2024 at 12:33 PM, Tomm said:

43:8 Clearly limits the time to 10 minutes but it also allows for the motion to Extend Limits of Debate, which is a motion not allowed within a committee, which is implying to me that the 10 minute rule stated in 43:8 does not apply in rules for small boards but only larger assemblies?

But the rule doesn't apply any limit on debate. It just helps to ensure that everyone gets an opportunity to speak. I repeat that under the small board rules, a member can only speak up to ten minutes per speech, but can make an unlimited number of speeches. So after others have spoken, the member can speak again. And if no others have spoken, the member can still speak again.

So I don't really view this as a "limit" on debate. It just prevents one member from filibustering forever, and not permitting any other members to speak.

[Tomm]

On 3/22/2024 at 10:46 AM, Josh Martin said:

a member can only speak up to ten minutes per speech

But a member could speak longer, but only with unanimous consent?

43:8 Maximum Time for Each Speech. In a nonlegislative body or organization that has no special rule relating to the length of speeches (2), a member, having obtained the floor while a debatable motion is immediately pending, can speak no longer than ten minutes unless he obtains the consent of the assembly. Such permission can be given by unanimous consent (4:58–63), or by means of a motion to Extend Limits of Debate (15), which requires a two-thirds vote without debate.

[Josh Martin]

On 3/22/2024 at 1:01 PM, Tomm said:

But a member could speak longer, but only with unanimous consent?

43:8 Maximum Time for Each Speech. In a nonlegislative body or organization that has no special rule relating to the length of speeches (2), a member, having obtained the floor while a debatable motion is immediately pending, can speak no longer than ten minutes unless he obtains the consent of the assembly. Such permission can be given by unanimous consent (4:58–63), or by means of a motion to Extend Limits of Debate (15), which requires a two-thirds vote without debate.

Yes, a member could speak longer for a single speech, granted by unanimous consent or by a motion to Extend Limits of Debate, which requires a 2/3 vote without debate. Motions to limit debate are not permitted in committees, but motions to extend limits of debate are still permitted.

If the member cannot obtain such consent, the member can still speak again after other members have an opportunity to speak.

[Richard Brown]

On 3/22/2024 at 1:01 PM, Tomm said:

But a member could speak longer, but only with unanimous consent?

43:8 Maximum Time for Each Speech. In a nonlegislative body or organization that has no special rule relating to the length of speeches (2), a member, having obtained the floor while a debatable motion is immediately pending, can speak no longer than ten minutes unless he obtains the consent of the assembly. Such permission can be given by unanimous consent (4:58–63), or by means of a motion to Extend Limits of Debate (15), which requires a two-thirds vote without debate.

You answered your own question (which I have bolded) with the last sentence of your post: Such permission can be given by unanimous consent (4:58-63) or by means of a motion to Extend Limits of Debate (15), which requires a two-thirds vote without debate.

[Tomm]

On 3/22/2024 at 11:21 AM, Richard Brown said:

or by means of a motion to Extend Limits of Debate (15), which requires a two-thirds vote without debate.

I could have sworn I read somewhere, but now can't find it again, that you can't Extend the Limits of Debate in a committee?

[Rob Elsman]

Motions to close or limit debate in a committee are not in order.  RONR (12th ed.) 50:25.  The book does not say that motions to extend the limits of debate are not in order.

[Josh Martin]

On 3/22/2024 at 1:39 PM, Tomm said:

I could have sworn I read somewhere, but now can't find it again, that you can't Extend the Limits of Debate in a committee?

The text provides "In order that there may be no interference with the assembly's having the benefit of its committees' matured judgment, motions to close or limit debate (15, 16) are not allowed in committees." RONR (12th ed.) 50:25

I'm not aware of any rule prohibiting committees from extending limits on debate.

[Tomm]

On 3/22/2024 at 11:43 AM, Rob Elsman said:

Motions to close or limit debate in a committee are not in order. 

"close or limit" ?  What am I missing here?  Does not the motion to Extend or Limit Debate set a limit?

[Rob Elsman]

The formal name of the motion is "Limit or Extend the Limits of Debate".  The motion has several forms that accomplish different objectives.  In committees, the subsidiary motion is not in order when any of its provisions would have the effect of closing debate at a future hour or limiting the length or number of speeches a member can make.  When the motion has a form that only has the effect of extending the length of speeches, it is in order.  Since committees generally operate under the rules for small boards, the number of speeches allowed cannot be extended, since members already are not limited to a fixed number of speeches.

[Josh Martin]

On 3/22/2024 at 1:47 PM, Tomm said:

"close or limit" ?  What am I missing here?  Does not the motion to Extend or Limit Debate set a limit?

"The motion to Limit or Extend Limits of Debate can limit debate by: (1) reducing the number or length of speeches permitted, without including specific provision for closing debate; or (2) requiring that, at a certain later hour or after debate for a specified length of time, debate shall be closed. It can extend the limits of debate by allowing more and longer speeches than under the regular rules (see 43:8–13). It cannot impose an immediate closing of debate, which requires a different motion—the Previous Question." RONR (12th ed.) 15:2

The motion to Limit or Extend Limits of Debate can be used to limit debate or to extend limits on debate (or both of these in the same motion). In committees, the motion cannot be used to limit debate, but it can still be used to extend limits on debate. For example, it could be used (as illustrated above) to permit a single speech of longer than ten minutes (which is the only limit on debate that still exists in committees under the default rules in RONR). Or in an organization which has adopted its own rules limiting debate in committees (but not permitting the committee itself to limit debate further), the motion could be used to extend those limits, but not to limit debate further.

Edited March 22, 2024 at 06:59 PM by Josh Martin