Form of address - Ms.

[Guest Pat Knoll]

In the 11th edition of  RONR  the form of address fro female  Ms. is used ( p 48 ,L 18 ) . Is that the only place where this form of address is mentioned in RONR - 11. And why was that used rather than the traditional forms - Miss and Mrs. ( p.35,35 Miss; p.Mrs. p. 33) ? Does anyone know ? 

[Edgar Guest]

"Miss" should not be used to refer to an adult female human. It's 2015. Nor should Mrs. be used. There no reason to indicate marital status.

 

And don't get me started on "Madame Chairman"

[Dan Honemann]

I'd have some difficulty determining whether the chairman (whether male or female) said "Miss" or "Ms.", but I wouldn't spend any time worrying about it.

[jstackpo]

I find no "Ms." at the cited location: p. 48, l. 18.   Where might Guest Pat be looking or at what (other-?) book?

[Dan Honemann]

I find no "Ms." at the cited location: p. 48, l. 18.   Where might Guest Pat be looking or at what (other-?) book?

 

Try page 49 instead.

[jstackpo]

Ah, thank you. My search engine wouldn't distinguish between "Ms." and lots and lots of words with "ms" embedded in the words.  

[Gary Novosielski]

In the 11th edition of  RONR  the form of address fro female  Ms. is used ( p 48 ,L 18 ) . Is that the only place where this form of address is mentioned in RONR - 11. And why was that used rather than the traditional forms - Miss and Mrs. ( p.35,35 Miss; p.Mrs. p. 33) ? Does anyone know ? 

 

In groups small enough that the participants are known to the chair, it would be best to address people the way they prefer to be addressed.

[Richard Brown]

"Miss" should not be used to refer to an adult female human. It's 2015. Nor should Mrs. be used. There no reason to indicate marital status.

 

In groups small enough that the participants are known to the chair, it would be best to address people the way they prefer to be addressed.

I agree with Gary.  My experience and my quick internet search a few minutes ago both indicate that women (and men) should be addressed using the term they prefer and that the terms Miss and Mrs. are still perfectly acceptable for adult women, especially Mrs.  Miss is losing favor somewhat in favor of Ms, but it is still proper.

[Rev Ed]

"Miss" should not be used to refer to an adult female human. It's 2015. Nor should Mrs. be used. There no reason to indicate marital status.

 

And don't get me started on "Madame Chairman"

 

Mrs. should be used for a married woman - she is a Mrs.  Miss is for an unmarried woman who is just that  - unmarried.  Ms. is just a politically correct way of getting out of caring.

 

And Madame Chairman is a perfectly acceptable term - I refuse to call a person a piece of furniture, except perhaps as an insult - but never out of respect.  Therefore it will always be "Chairman" or if forced "Chairperson".

[jstackpo]

 

 

And Madame Chairman is a perfectly acceptable term

 

It better be - it's in the book (but without the terminal 'e') in three places.

 

Pop quiz:  find them without a search engine!

[Edgar Guest]

Mrs. should be used for a married woman - she is a Mrs.  Miss is for an unmarried woman who is just that  - unmarried.  Ms. is just a politically correct way of getting out of caring.

So in a deliberative assembly we care whether a woman is married or unmarried but we don't care whether a man is married or unmarried? I'm pretty sure it's 2015 in Canada too. And while the term "politically correct" has been give a bad name because it's sometimes been taken to extremes, it's actually a way of caring, not a way of getting out of caring. That's why firefighters are firefighters now, not firemen.

 

And Madame Chairman is a perfectly acceptable term - I refuse to call a person a piece of furniture, except perhaps as an insult - but never out of respect.  Therefore it will always be "Chairman" or if forced "Chairperson".

But never Chairwoman?

[Josh Martin]

Is that the only place where this form of address is mentioned in RONR - 11.

Yes.

And why was that used rather than the traditional forms - Miss and Mrs. ( p.35,35 Miss; p.Mrs. p. 33) ? Does anyone know ?

I would presume that the chairman in that scenario did not know whether Ms. Watkins was married, or that Ms. Watkins preferred this form of address. In any event, I wouldn't read anything into it.

[Edgar Guest]

I would presume that the chairman in that scenario did not know whether Ms. Watkins was married . . .

I'd like to think that even if the chair knew, the chair figured it wasn't germane. Just like it didn't matter whether Mr. Thomas was married or not.

 

Though I do agree that, if known, people should generally be addressed in the manner they prefer.

[George Mervosh]

Though I do agree that, if known, people should generally be addressed in the manner they prefer.

 

Indeed, Mr. Mt. 

[Dan Honemann]

Well, as best I can determine, "Miss", "Mrs." and "Ms." all appear to be abbreviations of "Mistress", but I guess that's not the word to use.

[Guest Pat Knoll]

​Ms.    appears on p 49  line  18 in the 11th edition . Prior to the 11th edition it was not used before the 11th . But all the other s are ;

 

Mrs. '

Miss 

Madam 

lady 

 

 

At a University faculty meeting a week ago - that adopted Roberts - this became a significant source of difficulty . There were about 200 faculty present . This writer Chaired  and began the meeting using traditional forms of address - "Madam , Sir , The lady at the mic, Ma,am :.

 

But soon into the debate several persons made objection - some may have been trans  -some define its feminists - one person who asked to referred to as "  Lady at the mic . It was actually quite bitter on this subject and , of course , this assembly did not know when RONR was adopted these antiquated forms would be used . 

 

The meeting was hostile in any event and this made it worse so and to the extent I will never use any of these informs of address again . The question remains  why  Ms. in the 11th, and only one time - while at the same time continuing on with 19th century balance of forms as well . This only causes confusion when its entirely unnecessary . Why does RONR not go entirely gender neutral 

 

The Registrant

The Member 

The Person 

 

The Chair   

The Secretary 

 

The inclusion of one Ms. on p . 49 is what ? A slip ,  or an intentional insertion of one Ms.  to begin 50 years more years of the same  gender driven forms of identification . RONR IB was a helpful advance but surely change in this connections also an important step for the next edition . Otherwise rONR describes itself as antiquated , 19th century , discriminatory harmful exclusionary . 

 

Are there any who agree-  or disagree ? 

 

 

 

 

[Dan Honemann]

​Ms.    appears on p 49  line  18 in the 11th edition . Prior to the 11th edition it was not used before the 11th . But all the other s are ;

 

Mrs. '

Miss 

Madam 

lady 

 

 

At a University faculty meeting a week ago - that adopted Roberts - this became a significant source of difficulty . There were about 200 faculty present . This writer Chaired  and began the meeting using traditional forms of address - "Madam , Sir , The lady at the mic, Ma,am :.

 

But soon into the debate several persons made objection - some may have been trans  -some define its feminists - one person who asked to referred to as "  Lady at the mic . It was actually quite bitter on this subject and , of course , this assembly did not know when RONR was adopted these antiquated forms would be used . 

 

The meeting was hostile in any event and this made it worse so and to the extent I will never use any of these informs of address again . The question remains  why  Ms. in the 11th, and only one time - while at the same time continuing on with 19th century balance of forms as well . This only causes confusion when its entirely unnecessary . Why does RONR not go entirely gender neutral 

 

The Registrant

The Member 

The Person 

 

The Chair   

The Secretary 

 

The inclusion of one Ms. on p . 49 is what ? A slip ,  or an intentional insertion of one Ms.  to begin 50 years more years of the same  gender driven forms of identification . RONR IB was a helpful advance but surely change in this connections also an important step for the next edition . Otherwise rONR describes itself as antiquated , 19th century , discriminatory harmful exclusionary . 

 

Are there any who agree-  or disagree ? 

 

Blaming any confusion that may have occurred during this University's faculty meeting on RONR is patently absurd.

[jstackpo]

In any period of social transition there are sure to be leaders and laggards, including those who think the use of "Ms" is a clear symptom of the accelerating decline of western civilization.

 

The proper parliamentary response to the difficulties Guest_Pat describes is for her (the language still lacks a gender neutral third person singular pronoun, sorry) association to adopt a Special Rule of Order (p. 15) specifying the forms of address that are either to be employed or avoided during meetings of the association.  This is perfectly proper and such rules would supersede any (implicit or explicit) rules to the contrary in RONR.

[George Mervosh]

I wonder what happens when Ms. Knoll's assembly has to take on serious issues?

[Dan Honemann]

I wonder what happens when Ms. Knoll's assembly has to take on serious issues?

 

If Guest Pat Knoll is who I think he is, my guess is that he was presiding as a professional, and the assembly was not his, which leads me to wonder why he doesn't join us as a member and help out by responding to questions once in a while. He most certainly would be a welcome addition.

[Transpower]

I prefer to use Mr., Ms., and Chair....

[Josh Martin]

​Are there any who agree- or disagree ?

I thought Gary said all that needed to be said on this subject in Post #7, but if further discussion is necessary, I suppose I'll take a stab at it.

So far as I can tell, the usage in RONR in is not intended to suggest that any particular pattern of usage is preferable to another, let alone that any particular pattern of usage is required. Which terms are preferred will vary from assembly to assembly. As such, I'm not sure that our personal opinions on this subject matter. What is important is what terms the members of a particular assembly wish to use.

I would note however, that I believe RONR generally (although not always) uses gender-neutral terms to the extent that this is possible. As best as I can recall, the text uses terms such as "the member," "the delegate," or "the speaker" more frequently than terms such as "the gentleman" or "the lady," and while RONR does prefer use of "Chairman," it notes that other terms are used as well in modern times, such as "Chair" or "Chairperson."

Terms such as Mr., Mrs., Miss, and Ms. are used in the relatively rare instances where it is necessary to identify a member by name, such as when naming the members of a committee. Members are referred to by their last names, and common usage is that if a member does not have a title to use prior to their last name (Director, President, Senator, and so forth), the gendered titles are used instead. There is not, so far as I am aware, a gender-neutral equivalent. An assembly could refer to all of its members by a generic title (such as Member Smith) if it prefers to do so.

It is certainly correct that recent developments in society's understanding of gender makes these issues substantially more complicated, but these issues are not unique to RONR, nor is it within the scope of RONR to address such issues. RONR provides a framework for all members to be treated fairly and equitably. Topics such as gender identity and gender pronouns are subjects for those with other areas of expertise.

The proper parliamentary response to the difficulties Guest_Pat describes is for her (the language still lacks a gender neutral third person singular pronoun, sorry) association to adopt a Special Rule of Order (p. 15) specifying the forms of address that are either to be employed or avoided during meetings of the association. This is perfectly proper and such rules would supersede any (implicit or explicit) rules to the contrary in RONR.

I don't think a special rule of order is necessary. Custom should be sufficient for this subject in most societies, although if there is disagreement, I suppose a standing rule may be necessary.

[Guest Guest]

Just so that I'm fully identified myself  in this discussion- as that was raised above as a question . I have been a PRP since 2002 - and before that worked as a Parliamentarian for about 10 years - off and on . Patrick is the  full name- and Im a heterosexual 65 year old man - 2 adult children - if thats of any interest - although its of no relevance to this subject .I have no personal  ax to grind at all - re this subject 

 

Many of the clients  I  have - fully  adopt Roberts , or have RONR  as a guide and resource . They can have specials as they please- that  oblige gender neutral language . But I'm of the view after this described event that RONR should move to all gender neutral language  . Why ?

 

Because thats a productive change all around - productive for RONR and helpful in the context of inclusiveness , and non discriminatory address . The existence  of specific  gender forms in RONR is a disservice that should end - and that can easily be accomplished without injury or hurt to RONR or anyone . "Anyone" should be included as the standard  content in RONR .

 

Thoughts or is this exhausted ? 

 

Thx 

 

PK 

[Edgar Guest]

I prefer to use Mr., Ms., and Chair....

 

I'm grateful for any opportunity to agree with Mr. Power.

[Edgar Guest]

Why does RONR not go entirely gender neutral 

 

RONR is burdened with with what I sometimes refer to as "legacy language" (e.g."executive session") so change comes slowly.