Rev. Darian Posted June 4, 2017 at 01:50 PM Report Share Posted June 4, 2017 at 01:50 PM What if a meeting occurred and minutes were recorded by the council Secretary, but once complete were distributed via email to only our church Secretary. Then the president called the secretary of the council on the phone and compelled her to revise the minutes and send a revised set of minutes without any indication to any member of the council they were revised in the updated unofficial minutes to the church Secretary. This was all done before any scheduled council meeting and was done without the knowledge of any of the other council members. Does this violate Robert's Rules of Order, since it was done without anyone's knowledge other than the President, Council Secretary and Church Secretary? Thank you Pastor Darian Hybl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hieu H. Huynh Posted June 4, 2017 at 02:01 PM Report Share Posted June 4, 2017 at 02:01 PM The council could still revise its meeting minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Katz Posted June 4, 2017 at 03:45 PM Report Share Posted June 4, 2017 at 03:45 PM 1 hour ago, Rev. Darian said: Does this violate Robert's Rules of Order, since it was done without anyone's knowledge other than the President, Council Secretary and Church Secretary? No. Prior to their adoption, the draft minutes are nothing more than the secretary's notes. At the next meeting, when the minutes are pending for adoption, they can be amended, including by substitution of the original draft. Think of it this way: when the assembly considers the minutes for adoption, what matters is the contents, not how they got to be that way. Either they are accurate, in which case they should be adopted, or not, in which case they should be amended, then adopted. In neither case does the saga of how the minutes got written matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Darian Posted June 5, 2017 at 02:55 PM Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 at 02:55 PM It is understood the minutes can be changed, but the real question is if any change needs to be done 'at the next meeting', NOT outside of the meeting. To compel minutes to be changed without the entire body seems to denote 'control' and a bias, which would or could be dishonest to what was done or stated. And to not let anyone know of the change is dishonest. So the question still remains, did the President violate Robert's Rules of Order by compelling a change 'outside' of a meeting where the minutes would be discussed and properly ammended? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted June 5, 2017 at 04:05 PM Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 at 04:05 PM And the answer remains the same. No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weldon Merritt Posted June 5, 2017 at 06:00 PM Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 at 06:00 PM I agree with the previous answers, but I am curious. How did the president "compel" the secretary to revise the minutes? Hold a gun to her head? My point is that while the president's action violoted no rule in RONR, the secretary certainly was under no obligation to comjply with the president's demands. She would have been enirely within her rights to tell the president to mind his own business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Darian Posted June 5, 2017 at 06:24 PM Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 at 06:24 PM The president and the church secretary were sent the minutes from the council meeting. A phone call was placed by the President to the Secretary of the Council to change the minutes she had written. Here is the explanation: "Robin contacted me and needed me to edit something in the minutes. Here are the edited ones. Hope this didn't mess you up." Original Wording: Memorial Committee: Deb reported: • A few donations came in for the window fund. It is sitting at $2,561.00. • Robin spoke to Mary Lou in regards to using her memorial monies that she has designated as history/education to update and replace the stain glass windows that were not destroyed by the hail storm. Changed to: Memorial Committee: Deb reported:• A few donations came in for the window fund. It is sitting at $2,561.00.| Building and Grounds: Robin reported:Robin is waiting for a quote from Bob in regards to replacing the carpet in the balcony to match up with the stairs where it was replaced from the hail damage. Robin spoke with Mary Lou about the use of her memorial monies. Notice the difference in the change from the 'location' and the 'specifics' about what it was intended to be used for. I believe this is a violation of not only the intent, but the letter of Robert's Rules of Order, because it changes the entire meaning without allowing others to be involved in the process for transparency sake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted June 5, 2017 at 06:49 PM Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 at 06:49 PM 25 minutes ago, Rev. Darian said: The president and the church secretary were sent the minutes from the council meeting. A phone call was placed by the President to the Secretary of the Council to change the minutes she had written. Here is the explanation: "Robin contacted me and needed me to edit something in the minutes. Here are the edited ones. Hope this didn't mess you up." Original Wording: Memorial Committee: Deb reported: • A few donations came in for the window fund. It is sitting at $2,561.00. • Robin spoke to Mary Lou in regards to using her memorial monies that she has designated as history/education to update and replace the stain glass windows that were not destroyed by the hail storm. Changed to: Memorial Committee: Deb reported:• A few donations came in for the window fund. It is sitting at $2,561.00.| Building and Grounds: Robin reported:Robin is waiting for a quote from Bob in regards to replacing the carpet in the balcony to match up with the stairs where it was replaced from the hail damage. Robin spoke with Mary Lou about the use of her memorial monies. Notice the difference in the change from the 'location' and the 'specifics' about what it was intended to be used for. I believe this is a violation of not only the intent, but the letter of Robert's Rules of Order, because it changes the entire meaning without allowing others to be involved in the process for transparency sake. None of this information should be included in the minutes in the first place. The minutes are a record of what was done, not what was said. In any event, the Secretary is free to make corrections to the draft minutes prior to presenting them for approval at the meeting. The assembly will still have an opportunity to make corrections when the draft minutes are presented for approval. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted June 5, 2017 at 07:15 PM Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 at 07:15 PM 3 hours ago, Daniel H. Honemann said: And the answer remains the same. No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Darian Posted June 5, 2017 at 08:37 PM Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 at 08:37 PM Let me see if I understand correctly: Minutes are 'unofficial' until approval at the next meeting? "Unofficial Minutes" are capable of being changed by anyone without others knowing the changes outside of any organized meeting? Minutes do not need a 'trail' of changes if they have not been approved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted June 5, 2017 at 08:44 PM Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 at 08:44 PM 6 minutes ago, Rev. Darian said: Let me see if I understand correctly: Minutes are 'unofficial' until approval at the next meeting? "Unofficial Minutes" are capable of being changed by anyone without others knowing the changes outside of any organized meeting? Minutes do not need a 'trail' of changes if they have not been approved? 1) Correct. The Secretary's draft is just that, an unapproved draft. 2) Not exactly. It's the Secretary's draft that is presented for approval. If the Secretary chooses to entertain changes to the draft he can, but he's not obliged to, nor is the Secretary obliged to let anyone have a copy of the draft prior to presenting it for approval at the meeting. 3) Correct. The Secretary can make multiple changes to the draft without telling anyone what they are. 4) Please see Mr. Martin's post again.......there's too much in the portion of the draft you posted. 5) See Mr. Honemann's post again. 6) Oh heck read every response again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev. Darian Posted June 5, 2017 at 09:13 PM Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 at 09:13 PM So draft minutes can be changed at any time and are not required to only be changed in a a 'called meeting'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted June 5, 2017 at 09:39 PM Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 at 09:39 PM Yup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Coronite Posted June 5, 2017 at 10:18 PM Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 at 10:18 PM But if you all (i.e. Rev. Darian's group) work at eliminating the extraneous material in your draft minutes, you'll likely find far less need for people to tinker around with them. Approval of the draft minutes (making them THE minutes) will likely go more smoothly, also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted June 5, 2017 at 10:46 PM Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 at 10:46 PM 2 hours ago, Rev. Darian said: Let me see if I understand correctly: Minutes are 'unofficial' until approval at the next meeting? "Unofficial Minutes" are capable of being changed by anyone without others knowing the changes outside of any organized meeting? Minutes do not need a 'trail' of changes if they have not been approved? 1.) Yes. 2.) No, not by anyone. By the Secretary. It is correct that no one else needs to know about the changes. All the members need to know is what is in the final draft. 3.) Correct. 1 hour ago, Rev. Darian said: So draft minutes can be changed at any time and are not required to only be changed in a a 'called meeting'? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted June 20, 2017 at 05:44 AM Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 at 05:44 AM I have had this argument with one of our board members for several years. Our non-profit has the secretary send draft minutes out to the board members in advance of the meetings. All Activity Home RONR Message Board – Robert’s Rules of Order Newly Revised General Discussion Meeting Minutes Revision Sign in to follow this Followers 4 Meeting Minutes Revision Started by Rev. Darian, June 4 meeting minutes change revision Reply to this topic Start new topic 15 posts in this topic Rev. Darian Members 5 posts Posted June 4 · Report post What if a meeting occurred and minutes were recorded by the council Secretary, but once complete were distributed via email to only our church Secretary. Then the president called the secretary of the council on the phone and compelled her to revise the minutes and send a revised set of minutes without any indication to any member of the council they were revised in the updated unofficial minutes to the church Secretary. This was all done before any scheduled council meeting and was done without the knowledge of any of the other council members. Does this violate Robert's Rules of Order, since it was done without anyone's knowledge other than the President, Council Secretary and Church Secretary? Thank you Pastor Darian Hybl Quote Hieu H. Huynh H. H. H. Members 3,458 posts Location: Southeast Florida Posted June 4 · Report post The council could still revise its meeting minutes. Quote Joshua Katz RP, Formerly Godelfan Members 909 posts Posted June 4 · Report post On 6/4/2017 at 8:50 AM, Rev. Darian said: Does this violate Robert's Rules of Order, since it was done without anyone's knowledge other than the President, Council Secretary and Church Secretary? No. Prior to their adoption, the draft minutes are nothing more than the secretary's notes. At the next meeting, when the minutes are pending for adoption, they can be amended, including by substitution of the original draft. Think of it this way: when the assembly considers the minutes for adoption, what matters is the contents, not how they got to be that way. Either they are accurate, in which case they should be adopted, or not, in which case they should be amended, then adopted. In neither case does the saga of how the minutes got written matter. Quote Rev. Darian Members 5 posts Posted June 5 · Report post It is understood the minutes can be changed, but the real question is if any change needs to be done 'at the next meeting', NOT outside of the meeting. To compel minutes to be changed without the entire body seems to denote 'control' and a bias, which would or could be dishonest to what was done or stated. And to not let anyone know of the change is dishonest. So the question still remains, did the President violate Robert's Rules of Order by compelling a change 'outside' of a meeting where the minutes would be discussed and properly ammended? Quote Daniel H. Honemann Fisherman Members 6,174 posts LocationTimonium, Maryland Posted June 5 · Report post And the answer remains the same. No. Quote Weldon Merritt Members 684 posts LocationSpokane, Washington Posted June 5 · Report post I agree with the previous answers, but I am curious. How did the president "compel" the secretary to revise the minutes? Hold a gun to her head? My point is that while the president's action violoted no rule in RONR, the secretary certainly was under no obligation to comjply with the president's demands. She would have been enirely within her rights to tell the president to mind his own business. Quote Rev. Darian Members 5 posts Posted June 5 · Report post The president and the church secretary were sent the minutes from the council meeting. A phone call was placed by the President to the Secretary of the Council to change the minutes she had written. Here is the explanation: "Robin contacted me and needed me to edit something in the minutes. Here are the edited ones. Hope this didn't mess you up." Original Wording: Memorial Committee: Deb reported: • A few donations came in for the window fund. It is sitting at $2,561.00. • Robin spoke to Mary Lou in regards to using her memorial monies that she has designated as history/education to update and replace the stain glass windows that were not destroyed by the hail storm. Changed to: Memorial Committee: Deb reported:• A few donations came in for the window fund. It is sitting at $2,561.00.| Building and Grounds: Robin reported:Robin is waiting for a quote from Bob in regards to replacing the carpet in the balcony to match up with the stairs where it was replaced from the hail damage. Robin spoke with Mary Lou about the use of her memorial monies. Notice the difference in the change from the 'location' and the 'specifics' about what it was intended to be used for. I believe this is a violation of not only the intent, but the letter of Robert's Rules of Order, because it changes the entire meaning without allowing others to be involved in the process for transparency sake. Quote Josh Martin Professional Registered Parliamentarian Members 11,623 posts LocationMinneapolis, MN Posted June 5 · Report post On 6/5/2017 at 1:24 PM, Rev. Darian said: The president and the church secretary were sent the minutes from the council meeting. A phone call was placed by the President to the Secretary of the Council to change the minutes she had written. Here is the explanation: "Robin contacted me and needed me to edit something in the minutes. Here are the edited ones. Hope this didn't mess you up." Original Wording: Memorial Committee: Deb reported: • A few donations came in for the window fund. It is sitting at $2,561.00. • Robin spoke to Mary Lou in regards to using her memorial monies that she has designated as history/education to update and replace the stain glass windows that were not destroyed by the hail storm. Changed to: Memorial Committee: Deb reported:• A few donations came in for the window fund. It is sitting at $2,561.00.| Building and Grounds: Robin reported:Robin is waiting for a quote from Bob in regards to replacing the carpet in the balcony to match up with the stairs where it was replaced from the hail damage. Robin spoke with Mary Lou about the use of her memorial monies. Notice the difference in the change from the 'location' and the 'specifics' about what it was intended to be used for. I believe this is a violation of not only the intent, but the letter of Robert's Rules of Order, because it changes the entire meaning without allowing others to be involved in the process for transparency sake. None of this information should be included in the minutes in the first place. The minutes are a record of what was done, not what was said. In any event, the Secretary is free to make corrections to the draft minutes prior to presenting them for approval at the meeting. The assembly will still have an opportunity to make corrections when the draft minutes are presented for approval. Quote George Mervosh Professional Registered Parliamentarian Members 5,591 posts LocationPittsburgh PA Posted June 5 · Report post On 6/5/2017 at 11:05 AM, Daniel H. Honemann said: And the answer remains the same. No. Quote Rev. Darian Members 5 posts Posted June 5 · Report post Let me see if I understand correctly: Minutes are 'unofficial' until approval at the next meeting? "Unofficial Minutes" are capable of being changed by anyone without others knowing the changes outside of any organized meeting? Minutes do not need a 'trail' of changes if they have not been approved? Quote George Mervosh Professional Registered Parliamentarian Members 5,591 posts LocationPittsburgh PA Posted June 5 · Report post On 6/5/2017 at 3:37 PM, Rev. Darian said: Let me see if I understand correctly: Minutes are 'unofficial' until approval at the next meeting? "Unofficial Minutes" are capable of being changed by anyone without others knowing the changes outside of any organized meeting? Minutes do not need a 'trail' of changes if they have not been approved? 1) Correct. The Secretary's draft is just that, an unapproved draft. 2) Not exactly. It's the Secretary's draft that is presented for approval. If the Secretary chooses to entertain changes to the draft he can, but he's not obliged to, nor is the Secretary obliged to let anyone have a copy of the draft prior to presenting it for approval at the meeting. 3) Correct. The Secretary can make multiple changes to the draft without telling anyone what they are. 4) Please see Mr. Martin's post again.......there's too much in the portion of the draft you posted. 5) See Mr. Honemann's post again. 6) Oh heck read every response again. Quote Rev. Darian Members 5 posts Posted June 5 · Report post So draft minutes can be changed at any time and are not required to only be changed in a a 'called meeting'? Quote jstackpo Members 6,981 posts Location: Fort Washington, Maryland Posted June 5 · Report post Yup. Quote Tom Coronite Members 442 posts LocationWeymouth MA (formerly 1stChurch) Posted June 5 · Report post But if you all (i.e. Rev. Darian's group) work at eliminating the extraneous material in your draft minutes, you'll likely find far less need for people to tinker around with them. Approval of the draft minutes (making them THE minutes) will likely go more smoothly, also. Quote Josh Martin Professional Registered Parliamentarian Members 11,623 posts LocationMinneapolis, MN Posted June 5 · Report post On 6/5/2017 at 3:37 PM, Rev. Darian said: Let me see if I understand correctly: Minutes are 'unofficial' until approval at the next meeting? "Unofficial Minutes" are capable of being changed by anyone without others knowing the changes outside of any organized meeting? Minutes do not need a 'trail' of changes if they have not been approved? 1.) Yes. 2.) No, not by anyone. By the Secretary. It is correct that no one else needs to know about the changes. All the members need to know is what is in the final draft. 3.) Correct. On 6/5/2017 at 4:13 PM, Rev. Darian said: So draft minutes can be changed at any time and are not required to only be changed in a a 'called meeting'? Yes. Quote You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in. There has been a long standing disagreement about minutes on a board I serve on that I am thinking this addresses. I would appreciate your take on this, please. A few weeks following our board meeting, the secretary will send a draft of the minutes by email to all board members. There can be 1-4 months before the next meeting. Once the draft is sent out, members frequently will send corrections to the secretary. Close to the meeting, the secretary will send the draft out again- with corrections having been implemented (if she sees them as warranted). When the board meeting takes place, the minutes are reviewed- corrections of this draft are entertained, and motion made for approval, etc. In my view, the only "corrections" that need to be identified are those made at the meeting. She, on the other hand, continues to insist that once the minutes were sent out by email after the meeting, those are considered "the minutes" (although they are labeled on each page with "draft" in red ink) and any corrections (including those made before the second draft of minutes is sent out) must be marked as corrections for the final minutes filed. I am of the impression that this discussion confirms the stance I have taken? Is there any place in particular in Roberts Rules that I could refer her to so that this can be settled? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted June 20, 2017 at 01:53 PM Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 at 01:53 PM 8 hours ago, Guest Guest said: There has been a long standing disagreement about minutes on a board I serve on that I am thinking this addresses. I would appreciate your take on this, please. A few weeks following our board meeting, the secretary will send a draft of the minutes by email to all board members. There can be 1-4 months before the next meeting. Once the draft is sent out, members frequently will send corrections to the secretary. Close to the meeting, the secretary will send the draft out again- with corrections having been implemented (if she sees them as warranted). When the board meeting takes place, the minutes are reviewed- corrections of this draft are entertained, and motion made for approval, etc. In my view, the only "corrections" that need to be identified are those made at the meeting. She, on the other hand, continues to insist that once the minutes were sent out by email after the meeting, those are considered "the minutes" (although they are labeled on each page with "draft" in red ink) and any corrections (including those made before the second draft of minutes is sent out) must be marked as corrections for the final minutes filed. I am of the impression that this discussion confirms the stance I have taken? Is there any place in particular in Roberts Rules that I could refer her to so that this can be settled? Actually, you are both wrong. Neither the corrections made before the meeting nor the corrections made at the meeting need to be identified. See the first paragraph of FAQ #16. They are not "the minutes" until approved by the assembly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Just a Posted June 20, 2017 at 06:23 PM Report Share Posted June 20, 2017 at 06:23 PM Thank you so very much, Josh! I much appreciate the clarification on this issue!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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