Weaponizing RONR

[Mike Phillips]

Is anyone aware of an article or guide that explains how RONR can be weaponized? Stick with me. A group of us will be attending a meeting at the end of this month that has to be run according to RONR. The chair running the meeting is well versed in RONR (although not a Registered Parliamentarian) and will likely try to use RONR to bludgeon people and control  the debate. The objective will be to remove the chair who will not provide a copy of the bylaws and who has already played tricks, like scheduling an in-person only meeting on a week night  at a location that is miles from the "epicenter" of the members of the group. Several people have already said they can't travel that far on a work night. The chair has a reputation for running out the clock so that his supporters, who are prepared to stay until the opposition leaves, to vote according to the wishes of the chair. 

All we want them to do is play by the rules. He doesn't have a reputation for doing so. It's time for a change. 

[Richard Brown]

9 minutes ago, Mike Phillips said:

Is anyone aware of an article or guide that explains how RONR can be weaponized? Stick with me. A group of us will be attending a meeting at the end of this month that has to be run according to RONR. The chair running the meeting is well versed in RONR (although not a Registered Parliamentarian) and will likely try to use RONR to bludgeon people and control  the debate. The objective will be to remove the chair who will not provide a copy of the bylaws and who has already played tricks, like scheduling an in-person only meeting on a week night  at a location that is miles from the "epicenter" of the members of the group. Several people have already said they can't travel that far on a work night. The chair has a reputation for running out the clock so that his supporters, who are prepared to stay until the opposition leaves, to vote according to the wishes of the chair. 

All we want them to do is play by the rules. He doesn't have a reputation for doing so. It's time for a change. 

Seeing as how there is no RONR Police Department, I can only suggest you and as many others who agree with you learn the rules yourselves so that you know what is proper and can properly challenge the chair, raise points of order, appeal from rulings of the chair, make and process a motion to remove the chair from presiding, and possibly even removal from office or other disciplinary measures as discussed in chapter XX of RONR.  There is essentially nothing in RONR In Brief on discipline  nor much about  what to do when things go wrong.  RONR In Brief is a guide to how to do things the right  way, but not of much use when things are going wrong or you have a chair who won't follow the rules. If RONR is hard to understand, the book "Robert's Rules for Dummies" might be helpful.  It can be a great help in understanding RONR and is written by a highly respected PRP.  It is not a substitute for RONR, but is rather in the nature of an adjunct to it.   However, the most  recent edition is the  3rd edition published in 2016 and it is based on the 11th edition of RONR.  It has not yet been updated to correlate to the 12th edition.  Not that much has changed, however, especially not in the areas that seem to be of most concern to you.

BTW, if the chair does not already have a copy, it might be a good idea to give him a copy of RONR and/or RONR in Brief.

You and some fellow members who think alike will have to organize as this is something you probably cannot pull off acting alone.  You need vocal (and knowledgeable) support when you raise points of order, argue appeals, etc.  

You asked about "weaponizing" RONR.  There are those who don't really understand it or know it well who CLAIM that it is being weaponized.... and perhaps it can be by those who know it well.  That can be true for many things in life.  The defense to that  is for others to know it just as well.  I'm not aware of any articles on the subject, but perhaps someone else on here does.

[Mike Phillips]

You make some really good points and suggestions. A couple of our people are fairly good with RONR, but when things start moving quickly, it can be challenging. We have RONR 12 and RONR In Brief 3 as well as Dummies and several others following the 11th edition. I'm studying them almost every day because I want to become proficient with RONR. It's a tough road. I wish I had started 20 years ago!

As far as your comment that those who don't really understand it claim that it is weaponized, that's very true. I experienced it myself eight to ten years ago. However, I have since personally observed a chair moving so quickly that it was almost impossible to get the floor in time to raise an objection. I know there are procedures for dealing with a situation like this, but this guy is good. There were a couple of events where he (properly) called some members out of order and told them to suspend where the members' actions were a cause for concern (security was called), but nothing further happened.

It will be an interesting meeting. I'm going to try to find someone who is well versed on RONR that we might be able to hire to attend with us. I'm not sure how that would work if the chair moves quickly. 

While we're on the subject, let's say the chair refuses to recognize members who properly try to obtain the floor, what actions should the body take to get control over the chair? Is that where "vocal support" comes into play?

[RSW]

Given that RONR is incorporated by reference in your bylaws, your remedies may turn out to be legal rather than parliamentary if the chair is actively pulling shenanigans and won’t even pretend to follow thecrules.

[Richard Brown]

43 minutes ago, RSW said:

Given that RONR is incorporated by reference in your bylaws, your remedies may turn out to be legal rather than parliamentary if the chair is actively pulling shenanigans and won’t even pretend to follow thecrules.

RONR provides adequate remedies, but as in other aspects of life, if one party refuses to do the right thing, legal action as a last resort is sometimes necessary.

I suggest to Mr. Phillips that he study the pertinent parts of the disciplinary procedures in chapter XX of RONR thoroughly.  I would pay particular attention to temporarily removing a chair from presiding and to removal from office generally. There is also the ordinary motion of censure which is not necessarily disciplinary action and can be adopted without notice by a majority vote. It’s nothing more than a slap on the wrist, but it sends a message.

He should also make sure to read question # 20 in the frequently asked questions on this website.   

[Josh Martin]

1 hour ago, Mike Phillips said:

While we're on the subject, let's say the chair refuses to recognize members who properly try to obtain the floor, what actions should the body take to get control over the chair? Is that where "vocal support" comes into play?

I suggest reviewing RONR (12th ed.) 62:2-15.

There is also a script on this subject written by Rod Davidson, PRP. The page references are out of date at this point, but the procedure remains accurate. A link to the script is available in this thread.

[Atul Kapur]

6 hours ago, Mike Phillips said:

I'm going to try to find someone who is well versed on RONR that we might be able to hire to attend with us.

This is known as a "floor parliamentarian." You can get referrals for professional parliamentarians through the American Institute of Parliamentarians or the National Association of parliamentarians.

[Rob Elsman]

It is true that having a "smarty-pants" in parliamentary procedure in a meeting full of newbies can give the impression that parliamentary procedures are being "weaponized" to leave the uninformed powerless and frustrated.  To get around this sort of thing, the society may want to establish a standing committee on rules, one of the purposes of which would be to promote continuing education in parliamentary procedure.  Once members know how to participate effectively in meetings, they can assert themselves properly.  The other line of defense against the abuse of authority by the chair is the proper vetting of candidates standing for election as presiding officer.  Electing people who have, over time, demonstrated their knowledge of proper parliamentary procedure and proper temperament should help reduce the kinds of abuse that have been described. 

[J. J.]

Suggest that you read "The Art of the Coup d'Etat," Parliamentary Journal, October 2005.  It is not online, but should be available from the American Institute of Parliamentarians. 

Another not online is "Putting the Motion From the Floor," National Parliamentarian, Second Quarter, 2012, which is available from the National Association of Parliamentarians. 

Also see "The Chair and the Frame," National Parliamentarian, Third Quarter, 2014, which his here:  https://issuu.com/parliamentarians/docs/np_3rd_quarter

It is not quite as relevant, but may give you some ideas.  The were all written by the same guy, who is completely Machiavellian. 

Edited April 15, 2021 at 03:54 PM by J. J.

[Alicia Percell, PRP]

On 4/14/2021 at 5:06 PM, Mike Phillips said:

The chair has a reputation for running out the clock so that his supporters, who are prepared to stay until the opposition leaves, to vote according to the wishes of the chair.

To help with this particular tactic, before the meeting you should read up on:

1) a motion to Limit Debate (starting at RONR 15:1) so that business moves along at a reasonably efficient rate

2) If you adopt a formal agenda rather than following a generic order of business, then review agenda amendments so that you can vote to place important topics relatively early on the agenda.  If done before the agenda is adopted, it requires only a simple majority vote.  (RONR 41:60-63)

3) creating special orders to take up a particular topic at a fixed time before the opposition leaves (starting at RONR 41:41)

4) If you want to get to a particular topic next, study suspending the rules to take an item up out of order, though this requires winning a 2/3 vote (RONR 41:37-39)

5) Depending on the size of his opposition, before they depart, while they can still vote to help obtain a majority, perhaps just make a motion to adjourn so that business cannot continue for the day.  The longer the meeting seems to drag on, the more likely that others will be ready to do this.

Your comment that the chair will not provide a copy of the bylaws is particularly concerning.  Given that RONR 2:13 emphasizes that it's a good policy to give new members a copy of the bylaws (and any corporate charter) when they join the organization, and that being familiar with the bylaws and other rules is crucial to being able to participate fully in the organization's business, I think hiding the bylaws from the membership is a pretty good cause for removal of a chair from office since it may serve to deprive the membership of their rights of participation.

 

 

[RSW]

4 hours ago, Alicia Percell said:

Your comment that the chair will not provide a copy of the bylaws is particularly concerning.  Given that RONR 2:13 emphasizes that it's a good policy to give new members a copy of the bylaws (and any corporate charter) when they join the organization, and that being familiar with the bylaws and other rules is crucial to being able to participate fully in the organization's business, I think hiding the bylaws from the membership is a pretty good cause for removal of a chair from office since it may serve to deprive the membership of their rights of participation.

That's where I was trying to go with the suggestion that remedies may wind up being legal rather than parliamentary.

Solving the problem on the floor of a meeting is ideal. Assuming the opposition is a majority, and that the chair is willing to be bound by RONR as it's actually written (as opposed to how it's written in his head) and recognize people for appropriate motions, then this situation is absolutely solvable by many of the excellent solutions given above. I would add the suggestion that the assembly could move to compel the chair / secretary / whoever has them to produce a copy of the bylaws, and distribute them to all members of the assembly.

That said, I've attended meetings where it was pretty much explicitly stated beforehand that a meeting was going to follow the pre-determined agenda come hell or high water, and anything else from the floor would not be entertained. If that's the situation, and the chair is *NOT* willing to allow any business that's not pre-approved by him, whether or not it's validly introduced from the floor, then there's a Very Large Problem in play that may require authority other than the immediate the assembly.

In that situation, it's helpful to remember that bylaws are a *legal* document. They supersede RONR in areas where they speak directly. And because they can occasionally provide for some bizarre and ill-advised things, this can result in a situation where the members are trying to win a game where only the chair truly knows the rules.

But it also results in a situation where if a chair violates the assembly's rules by doing something - like spontaneously calling a meeting that only his friends can attend, outside of his authority to do so procedurally - there's a potential cause for legal action.

I'm not a lawyer, and this forum isn't here to provide legal advice. But depending on how crazy this gets, a consult with a lawyer might be a prudent step. Just make sure you're getting your parliamentary advice from parliamentarians, and your legal advice from lawyers - not the other way around.

Wishing Mr. Phillips the best of luck in remedying this thoroughly unpleasant-sounding situation!

[Josh Martin]

10 minutes ago, RSW said:

Solving the problem on the floor of a meeting is ideal. Assuming the opposition is a majority, and that the chair is willing to be bound by RONR as it's actually written (as opposed to how it's written in his head) and recognize people for appropriate motions, then this situation is absolutely solvable by many of the excellent solutions given above. I would add the suggestion that the assembly could move to compel the chair / secretary / whoever has them to produce a copy of the bylaws, and distribute them to all members of the assembly.

That said, I've attended meetings where it was pretty much explicitly stated beforehand that a meeting was going to follow the pre-determined agenda come hell or high water, and anything else from the floor would not be entertained. If that's the situation, and the chair is *NOT* willing to allow any business that's not pre-approved by him, whether or not it's validly introduced from the floor, then there's a Very Large Problem in play that may require authority other than the immediate the assembly.

RONR has procedures for members to state the question on and put to a vote motions themselves, as well as motions to remove the chair, if it comes to that point. After the chair is removed, there also procedures for removing disruptive members, if the former chair continues shouting and insisting that he is in control.

Certainly it may well be that ultimately the assembly will need legal advice, but I am not persuaded that the chair's unwillingness to allow any business that's not pre-approved by him, in and of itself, is a problem that can't be solved by the assembly. The chair is only one person. If a substantial majority of the assembly (which will be required to remove the chair) are prepared to use the procedures in 62:2-15, I don't how the chair could stop them.

Edited April 16, 2021 at 12:24 PM by Josh Martin

[Mike Phillips]

Thanks, everyone. The meeting in question turned out to be quite interesting. The dictator started the meeting and went through informalities -- for over an hour -- until she drew the ire of the body. When the body became verbally hostile towards her, she had somewhat of a meltdown. After spending a few minutes trying to recover, she announced that she was taking herself out of the race for chair, she appointed a chairman for the event, who was somewhat well versed in parliamentary procedure, and the meeting continued without incident. No parliamentary maneuvers were necessary. Her challenger was elected by acclamation.

She has now humiliated herself such that she will not likely be an active member of the organization for a long time, if ever. The organization is better off without her. She violated almost every rule in the book, as the saying goes. 

I will review the materials above that I can find. This information is very helpful. 

Rather than start a new thread, does anyone know when RONR/12th will be available on CD? The website says "early 2021", but we're past that. 

Edited May 23, 2021 at 03:43 PM by Mike Phillips

[Guest Puzzling]

Thanks for the update.

Was thinking how to weapenize RONR

And found:

you could just use the hardback version of RONR as weapon, just literally throw the book at the offender , use an elastic band to prevent it from opening during flight.

Ebooks and paperback versions are not recommended for this

[Benjamin Geiger]

On 4/14/2021 at 8:06 PM, Mike Phillips said:

The chair has a reputation for running out the clock so that his supporters, who are prepared to stay until the opposition leaves, to vote according to the wishes of the chair. 

Isn't this literally the entire raison d'etre for the motion to Reconsider And Enter On The Minutes?

[Weldon Merritt]

35 minutes ago, Benjamin Geiger said:

Isn't this literally the entire raison d'etre for the motion to Reconsider And Enter On The Minutes?

I don't know if it's "the entire raison d'etre," but it's certainly an example of when the motion could be used to good effect. But remember, the motion must be made by someone who voted on the prevailing side. So "the opposition" may need to strategize a bit and decide who will vote contrary to their true wishes. 

[Lori Lukinuk]

I'm not sure if they made many, if any, CDs.  Most computers no longer have a CD option available.  There is however a Kindle version of RONR (12th ed.) which is easy to use and is searchable.  I love it.

[Richard Brown]

On 5/23/2021 at 10:42 AM, Mike Phillips said:

Rather than start a new thread, does anyone know when RONR/12th will be available on CD? The website says "early 2021", but we're past that. 

 

39 minutes ago, Lori Lukinuk said:

I'm not sure if they made many, if any, CDs.  Most computers no longer have a CD option available.  There is however a Kindle version of RONR (12th ed.) which is easy to use and is searchable.  I love it.

For some time now Mr. Honemann has been stating that a CD version of the 12th edition will be published.  I have the Kindle version, too, mostly for "copy and paste" purposes, but I prefer the CD ROM version like we had for the 11th edition. I haven't seen any updates on the CD version for at least a couple of months, maybe longer.

@Daniel H. Honemannany update as to if and when the CD ROM version will be available?

Edited to add:  I see that on March 12 Mr. Honemann told us that there will be a CD ROM version of the 12th edition, but when someone asked when we can expect it, his response was to "ask Mr. Gerber".   So, perhaps we should ask Mr. Gerber.

@Shmuel Gerber, any idea when we might expect the CD ROM version to be available?

Edited May 24, 2021 at 09:21 PM by Richard Brown
Added last two paragraphs

[David R Homan]

The biggest drawback to a Kindle version is that it must be read on a Kindle.  Not everyone owns or wants one.  A RONR 12th on a thumb drive would be perfect.  Or a Sim card maybe, and SD card, or a download from the company.  Kindle is not a good workable answer IMLO.

[RSW]

25 minutes ago, David R Homan said:

A RONR 12th on a thumb drive would be perfect.

Even just an ePub version would allow reading on most any digital device, and the source for compiling the ePub already exists if it's available on Kindle.

[Weldon Merritt]

56 minutes ago, David R Homan said:

The biggest drawback to a Kindle version is that it must be read on a Kindle. 

Not necessarily. You also can download the Kindle app to your Smart Phone or computer. At least an Android phone and a Windows PC. I'm not sure if the app is available for Apple products. However, I do agree that it would be better to have a different digital version like we had for the 11th edition. 

[Richard Brown]

I do not have a Kindle reader or any other such device, but I did purchase the Kindle version of RONR and I can use it on my iPhone 7 and on my windows laptop. However, I do prefer the digital version but we had for the 11th edition that was on CD ROM.

FWIW, The Kindle version seems to work better on my iPhone then on my windows laptop. It is a pain to use on my laptop and every time I do a copy and paste using my laptop it automatically includes the copyright information, etc., which I have to edit out of every copy and paste. I do not have that issue when using my iPhone.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 5/25/2021 at 9:05 AM, David R Homan said:

The biggest drawback to a Kindle version is that it must be read on a Kindle.  Not everyone owns or wants one.  A RONR 12th on a thumb drive would be perfect.  Or a Sim card maybe, and SD card, or a download from the company.  Kindle is not a good workable answer IMLO.

I'm reading my Kindle versions on my Windows laptop.

[David R Homan]

How?  Mine won't work.  On any of 3 different brand windows machines, all on windows 10.

[Richard Brown]

5 minutes ago, David R Homan said:

How?  Mine won't work.  On any of 3 different brand windows machines, all on windows 10.

I don't know how or why, but the  Kindle version (and other Kindle books) work just fine on my ten year old Windows laptop and on my iPhone 7.  There is a "glitch" with the search feature when using it on my laptop, tho.  It's something  Gary Novosielski pointed out.  To search by section number, you must enter a space after the colon.  So, instead of typing 48:5, on my laptop I have to type 48: 5, inserting a space after the colon.  I don't have to do that on my iPhone.